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Puciek

Squad vision should incur aim penalty for most weapons

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This is as simple suggestion as they get, right now all squaddies can follow the lead of singular scout (hello MARS!)  and without any penalty take shots at whatever alien gets spotted, no manner how far of their own vision as long as they are within weapons range. I think that it's a bit too easy, as even though you are still blocked by LOS and so on, I would rather see some penalty for using that instead of having direct vision. To not make it too annoying the other way around, maybe it could change based on weapon equipped? For example:

Sniper rifles - no penalty for using squaddie vision, they have those fun scopes and long range optics which they can train on the enemy.

HMG/Assault rifles - small penalty as those still usually come with optics that work perfectly fine up to 200 meters.

SMGs - massive penalty as those are usually fitted with reflex/iron sights or even laser pointers, not suitable for long range fighting.

Pistols/Shotguns - can't be used with squad vision

 

I think this would make sense in terms of perceived realism and put even firmer distinction between different weapons and their purpose. Maybe even buff the now a bit less useful pistols shotties and SMGs when in close range?

Edited by Puciek

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For this discussion it's important to know how the system has always worked in X-Com games, and what's new for Xenonauts 2:

  • Xenonauts 1 and X-Com have always allowed this behaviour - there's no penalty for shooting at a target that you personally can't see. However if you lose sight on an alien then it disappears and you can't specifically target that alien any more (although you can force-fire in its direction).
  • Xenonauts 2 now "remembers" the location of spotted aliens until end of turn, so rotating your soldier away from a visible alien won't cause them to disappear from vision. This allows you to target the alien more easily.

Broadly speaking there two ways of addressing this issue. The more complex method is to try to obscure the information about spotted aliens you can no longer see - show a "ghost" of their model, but don't update it until the player gets vision on that area again. This means you don't necessarily know if you've killed that alien even if you've been firing a lot of shots in its direction, and perhaps wouldn't even know if a shot fired at that alien hit it.

The less complicated method is just to apply a hit penalty to any unit that isn't in the view cone of that specific soldier (whether or not that alien is currently visible to another soldier on your team). Finally, we could do nothing and leave the system as is.

In terms of balance, adding a squadsight accuracy penalty isn't really going to affect weapons like the pistol / shotgun / SMG because they can't fire effectively beyond the shooter's vision range anyway. It'll be a big nerf for sniper rifles which are specifically designed for that (although we could remove the penalty for them), but then the system would only affect rifles and LMGs and they also can't really shoot much further than the standard 18 tile vision range of a unit anyway. So I'm not sure the system would end up being used that often?

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Let it as it is now. We Beta-Testers are happy that a solution get found in that case and no CTD or Stuck in that Case come back.

And if Puciek ever plays a night mission, then he / she get very :mad: about that suggestion he / she announced. That I can promise with a big ;).

 

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26 minutes ago, Alienkiller said:

Let it as it is now. We Beta-Testers are happy that a solution get found in that case and no CTD or Stuck in that Case come back.

And if Puciek ever plays a night mission, then he / she get very :mad: about that suggestion he / she announced. That I can promise with a big ;).

 

Squadsight doesn't work too differently at night - units are still able to see the full 18 tiles at night, they just require the target to be lit to see beyond the ~9 tiles of light that each unit projects around themselves.

Spotting an alien using the light radius of another Xenonaut works the same as lighting the alien up using a flare; the original Xenonaut would be able to see the alien wothout squadsight provided it was within 18 tiles. These rules would therefore play fairly similarly during day missions and night missions.

Of course, it'd be kinda hard to convey to the player where the vision cone of any specific soldier ends - and they'd probably want to know that stepping a couple of tiles closer would allow them to get rid of the squadsight penalty!

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I honestly like the ghost idea, reminds me a lot of the old xcom indeed (I need to make the time and try openxcom some day ha! I have fond memories of TFTD) and if this will be communicated clearly shouldn't be causing much confusion. Right now it for sure confused me, as on one end my guy cannot see the alien, and yet he could hit and kill him just fine, and despite having no vision on the target I saw the hits and alien death.

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Yeah, I know what you mean. Have played the old X-Com Titels fully (esp. EU / TftD / Apocalypse). A similar System the Devs uses here in the night Missions and the Aliens have an Advantage against your Soldiers, which is the big difference to the old X-Com.

That what I mean with my first post. I´m happy that only 4 of my Soldiers get hurt and not died against Cesans and Wraiths.

 

Edited by Alienkiller

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The squad vision accuracy penalty as described by Puciek above does make a lot of sense to me.  If you can't actually see the target even if someone is pointing it out to you then spray and pray is the best you can hope for.  Only the sniper rifle, grenades/HE weapons, and assault/machineguns should get a reduction/avoid this penalty.  That said, the penalty should apply to the aliens as well.

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We have already a night reduction where you can´t see the Aliens, maybe a night shadow or something until you go so near that they can be seen from an Soldier with normal sight. But if it get more advantage for the Aliens against the Humans it would make the Night Missions more cooler like they were in the old X-Com-Series (EU / TftD).

That the Aliens there have a big Advantage against the Humans are great, that makes the Game much more interessting and the People have to use their Brain to make new tactics / strategys for night Missions. That have to be untouched.

Where I aggree is that the Soldiers far from the Aliens with normal Sight have big penaltys at night, which reduces the sight of identifing to 5 and 8 as well as 10 Tiles:

- Pistols, Assault, Maschineguns, Grenade Launchers (5 Tiles without R & D night Vision)

- Rifles and Sniper Rifles (8 Tiles for Rifels and 10 Tiles for Sniper Rifels with the sight assy on the Weapon since several Years)

The only other thing I aggree in this Point for night Sights is that the Humans have to kick her Buts and reduce technological (with R & D) the Alien Advantage in that Part. The same they are doing as well in Armor, Weapons, Fighter etc. - Advantages from the Aliens.

Everything else make no sense and destroy the Game fully.

 

 

Edited by Alienkiller

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