Will the Aliens have obectives on the S&D missions?

[Infinitum]

one of the things that bothered me with X-COM was the fact that there were no time constraints on most to all missions, meaning I had all the time in the world to set up a perimeter and proceed to slowly clear the map with Spotter/Sniper teams with little individual risk to my soldiers (up until Psychic enemies, anyhow) with the aliens passively waiting to be picked off one by one. I guess a case could be made for terror missions breaking this norm, but in reality this was moot as the majority of civilians were killed within the first few turns anyhow and weren't worth exposing team members to danger.

Will there be new features that promotes urgency in Xenonauts, such as the Aliens actively trying to escape the map, blow up their core to prevent recovery or actively counterattack the team (or dropship)?

[thothkins]

there's an escaped alines thing at the end of missions. I always thought that this would be used to not only reduce your score at mission's end, but also have an extra reduction at the end of each month, indicating the further damage that those pesky escaped aliens caused.

[Infinitum]

Pretty sure that's just to indicate Aliens missed if you win by securing the spacecraft?

[Gorlom]

Technically it's a penalty as well. It lowers your overall score on the mission and affects the funding provided by nations.

I'm assuming a more advanced AI will help against the sniper/spoter tactic. Possibly some unique alien race specific abilities will counter that too.

[Max_Caine]

Well... the aliens do go after Chinooks and transports in the geoscape. No reason to think they wouldn’t be as proactive in the ground assault. It would probably depend on the type of alien. I suspect that in game terms, they aren’t likely to be allowed to escape or blow up the core, at least, not straight away.

The problem with allowing aliens to escape is part of the game is a question of fairness. As a player you don’t know what the map is like until you touch down, but the aliens do. This means that if aliens were allowed to escape, they would know where the nearest “board edge” is to escape off, but you, as the player, would not. Players would not consider it fair if they didn’t get a chance to have a crack at all the aliens on a map.

One solution would be a designated “escape zone” where the aliens can escape off-map if they reach it. If the player knew this as well, and it was within reasonable distance from the dropship that would be fair and would add an extra dimension to the level. But while reasonable in game terms, it wouldn’t seem reasonable from a “realistic” point of view – after all, why can’t aliens escape from the board edge? For that matter, if aliens could escape, why can’t civilians escape from the board edge?

The same would apply to blowing the core – a question of fairness. Far more players would complain if they didn’t feel they got a reasonable chance to recover power cores. The solution there would be perhaps to indicate on the map a “countdown timer”. But then, players don’t like to be unnecessarily hurried either. From a development point of view, it’s not a cut-and-dry solution.

[thothkins]

I think that the likelihood of the aliens to escape would be based on their morale at the time. They must be fairly confident of victory early on in the game (unless they are vastly outmatched). As the tide turns, then there is more chance that they will try and sneak off.

I don't see why they shouldn't sneak off the map edge. In my mind though, the map edge is slightly abstract and it really means the larger area of combat. I'd still expect my troops to be able to shoot at something just off the map edge if were realistic, but if it's an unspotted alien that has a number of turns to escape then it should have the chance to get out.

Going by the backstory, the combat was going on for a few hours before the core blew. The US/Soviet forces secured a perimeter, before moving in. Xenonauts aren't known for such caution, and so the aliens simply don't have the chance to set it up.

[Max_Caine]

Well thothkins, we come back to that idea of "realism" and how it applies to other aspects of the game. Once you let aliens start escaping, then it isn't "realistic" that civilians, who don't start a fart in hell's chance of surviving even an alien crashland, can't escape just as aliens could. But civilians provide an unscripted random element in the scenario. If Xenonauts don't keep civvies alive, then they get marked down and potentially loose funding. On the other hand, if they keep them alive, then the get big smiles and gain funding support. Terror sites loose their bite if civvies can run off the closest board edge, and why shouldn't they? It isn't "realistic" that they would stay around where aliens can shoot at them. But it's critical in game terms to a terror site that there are civvies about who can be shot by aliens, or just what are the Xenonauts protecting? To prevent civvies from being slaughtered en mass, we have local military forces in terror sites and in crashlands - that buys the player time to secure their landing zone, discover where the aliens are and start shooting them.

I don't know if you've ever read the book "Maskerade" by Terry Prachett, but one character in it says that "people will cheerfully swallow a big lie, but choke on a small fib". As it stands in the UFO recovery missions, people buy into the idea that there would be civvies and aliens. But people will not swallow that aliens could run away, when civvies can't, and furthermore, if civvies can run away, then why aren't they running away straight away?

Edited June 2, 2012 by Max_Caine
removed presumptive text

[thothkins]

Once you let aliens start escaping, then it isn't "realistic" that civilians, who don't start a fart in hell's chance of surviving even an alien crashland, can't escape just as aliens could

Bah! missed a bit from what I wanted to put in the last post. I was going to say that both Xenonauts and Aliens have agressive goals in each scenario. The Xenonauts to wipe out the aliens, and the aliens to kill any local/xenonaut forces or to escape into the world to cause more mayhem (out of scope would be repair the ship/detonate the power core/take hostages). the civvies on the other hand (at least until the AI is improved) are panic stricken, and run around in terror. Perhaps they are trying to flee but, there are aliens and xenonauts from most directions, so a lot stay put (out of scope perhaps a lot have already fled before the Chinook lands and you're just seeing the aliens mop up the practically petrified)

I don't know if you've ever read the book "Maskerade" by Terry Prachett, but one character in it says that "people will cheerfully swallow a big lie, but choke on a small fib"

very weirdly for the first time this week...now, quit stalking me!

But people will not swallow that aliens could run away, when civvies can't, and furthermore, if civvies can run away, then why aren't they running away straight away?

I'd like to see more aliens try to run/hide/suicide run or even steal the Chinook while you've got all your troops roaming about. Haivng them tactically withdraw when there's no hope of salvaging the ship is reasonable behaviour. What you don;t see is your retrieval team killed when they come back or news that the locals have caught them and have hung them from the nearest lamp post.

As for the locals not running straight away, perhaps, as above, these are the really petrified ones left who haven't already run away? perhaps they started running through the map away form the ship, only to hear the noise of something else descending. Add to that local forces and tanks and there's a lot of firing going on. Shock, confusion and panic may have taken over. Just a thought.

[Jean-Luc]

Having Aliens try and perform complex maneuvers and pursue objectives is a bit too impractical from the coding perspective. When it comes to crash sites and landed UFOs there could, at best (imo), be a turn count down before alien reinforcements arrive (appearing at a random map edge) responding to the attacked UFO's mayday.

The power of these reinforcements would need to be such that, in the large majority of cases, it would be preferable to retreat back to the Chinook rather that suffer a Pyrrhic victory or defeat. This might tie in nicely with the "hold the UFO" alternative win condition since it could suddenly become a more preferable way to achieve victory rather than take on the fresh wave of aliens. This would, of course, depend on the current situation and could still prove very risky.

[Max_Caine]

thothkins, I'm glad to see that you've come up with some reasons why the aliens would run away, but the civvies wouldn't. Sadly, those reasons don't matter a hill of beans to people playing the game. I'm still talking of course about the small fib that people choke on, and that fib is: why wouldn't civvies run away when aliens can? It's the same kind of fib that people are confronted with when they cannot use alien weapons in the next mission. We know the reasons why, on the forums. It says why in the damn research text, but people don't see it like that. What they see is "well, I wouldn't do it like that". This is the crux of the argument. They can buy that you can't use alien weapons until they are researched. But because a player in his or her own head would carry an alien weapon from mission to mission, because they can see the weapons, because they can be used by Xenonauts in a particular mission, it doesn't, as a consequence "make sense" that a Xenonaut couldn't continue to use them regardless of the reasons presented.

This is the same kind of reasoning when it comes to aliens being able to escape, but civvies can't. Players can see civvies, civvies acting like some special kind of monkey (buddhist civilians, anyone?) and they can grasp that yeah, civvies may very well be present where an alien ship crash-lands. But because they can see civvies, a player would first consider what would "make sense" to him or her. And if an alien could escape, then it wouldn't "make sense" that a civvie couldn't. And I can see some apocalyptic flame wars if aliens escaping/civvies can't happening on this forum if such a thing were implemented, all because it doesn't "make sense".

(p.s. I have used the "alien weapons" argument as an example. It is the only reason why I have brought it up. Please please please don't bring it up as anything other than example of what "makes sense".)

[thothkins]

I guess I just buy into the reasons I stated above for why the civvies don't leave the map and their inability to do so really doesn't get in the way of believability for me.

I think that they are particularly stupid at present, but that will change a bit for the final game. Or did I just make that up?

Shell shocked citizens who have seen their loved ones die, stumbling down the street

Terrified folks cowering in doorways as the aliens pass, not budging even when a Xenonaut opens the door behind them

Petrified people unable to decide which way to go. Literally turning in circles, praying for a way out.

Scared to breathe civilians hiding inside buildings hoping that the conflict passes them by.

Running away form the sound of the Chinook, not knowing what it is, back into the conflict.

Even people looking to stick close to the local forces on the map, hoping that they can win the day.

Simply people too scared to leave their homes or workplaces, something familiar as the guns blaze outside.

To me, these are all scenarios that don't make me terribly bothered that the map isn't devoid of people. All small fibs I can much on actually.

I'd not have been too bothered about the aliens not being able to escape either, and could come up with scenarios for that too. But I'm fine with them being able to and the civvies not, as above.

Are you saying you can't reuse guns from the battlescape? Why, that's preposte..[this post has been redacted by the Powers of The Mighty Plott Device and his sidekick MacGuffin]

[Gorlom]

Damnit max_cain now your reasoning has made me wonder why there are never more then 7 civvies in the maps. Why are there equal number of civies in industrial tilesets at night as there are during office hours? What are farmers even doing out at night? Without a shotgun trying to shoot trespassers I mean.

[thothkins]

the farmers are waiting for their cows to be unabducted.

[Gauddlike]

Due to the preponderance of cattle abductions hyper acceleration of cow evolution has taken place and several species have become nocturnal in an attempt to avoid the alien menace.

One species has also become subterranean but you won't see them in this game (Xenonauts 2: Moos from the Depths spoiler there?).

Maybe aliens should retreat to their ship rather than escape from the map edge.

They are falling back to where they can attempt to make repairs and escape, be easily found and rescued, or detonate whatever volatile material is left in the ship.

After the crash they may be looking for materials for repairs, a way to call for help, human slaves to use as muscle etc.

When things start to look dicey for them it would make sense to head for their ship unless it has been captured with no chance of retaking it, in that situation they leave the area (hence the escaped message).

The mission is over once you take the ship so you don't really need to worry about how they left the area, only that they did.

It may throw up the occasional inconsistency, such as when you are in a fight with an alien who is on low health, on fire and stood in a cloud of stun smoke yet still 'escapes' because it was still alive when the ship was captured.

Civilians may have a chance to escape from the map edge if they are close to it but that would likely involve adding a despawn mechanic, as well as the option for the civvie AI to decide when to use it.

It just doesn't seem essential.

I would prefer for them to just avoid the enemy and stay out of the line of fire.

[Max_Caine]

Hands up anyone who has had to evacuate a large building. Anyone? In a previous job, I worked in an unemployment office. There was a long bank of ‘phones that our “customers” could use to ring up employers, call about benefits, that sort of thing. Several times in my time at that office, we had to evacuate the building – not because of a fire drill, but for a real, genuine reason. Almost inevitably two things happened:

1) My colleagues would wing it upstairs to go and get their bags and coats, even though we knew that every second counted and we needed to be out of there ASAP.

2) There would be 3-5 customers on the phones who would not get off them, even when the alarms were ringing. We had to actually cancel their calls before they would get up.

These people, who you would expect to behave in what we would consider a rational manner, behaved irrationally. My colleagues risked their lives for their personal possessions. Customers would rather stay in their seats and finish their phone calls, then get out of the building. The problem as players is that we behave in a rational fashion, and it is my belief we expect the characters on the other side of the screen to behave as we think we would in their situation.

I believe that we expect civilians to GET OUT OF THE DAMN WAY, because that’s what we feel we would do, given their situation. This is not true. In that situation, civilians would have a variety of reactions to ongoing events, from the fearful to the curious, from what we consider rational, to what we consider entirely irrational. It is not beyond comprehension that a civilian would get in the way between a Xenonaut and an alien, in the mistaken belief that the Xenonaut is the aggressor and the aliens need saving! But none of that “makes sense” to us, so we dismiss irrational behaviour and annoying and incomprehensible.

We have no tools to understand the mental state of civilians during the ground assault. They don’t have faces. They don’t have voices. All they do is flap their arms (and in certain cases, set themselves on fire several times). Without something to help us understand what a civilian is feeling at the time the only response is “what the hell?”. Perhaps what we could use is some kind of mouseover tooltip so we can understand, rationalise and strategize civilian behaviour. Let’s say (for example) civilians can express four behaviours – curiosity, aggression, fear and panic. If we could mouseover on a civilian and get a smiley face that corresponds with their current mood, the incomprehensible becomes the comprehensible, and we can factor civilian behaviour into our strategy.

[Gauddlike]

I have seen similar reactions when evacuating a workshop I used to work in, makes you wonder how we have survived as a species when people react the way they do to a threat.

[Gorlom]

Wait wait wait, back up a bit. What was this about subterranean cows?

and who is responsible for Male cows with udders? Compare Bull and Cow.

Jean-Luc I'm looking at you! Care to explain this? Why are the bulls using the same sprites as the cows?

Edited June 3, 2012 by Gorlom

[IceVamp]

About fire alarms and people

Yeah, that's kinda what I liked about my last job. Everyone was pretty clever, grounded and calm.

When the alarm went off, we'd tell our clients on the phone that we kinda had to go, as they could hear. (They were very understanding in all my cases) And we'd walk down the stairs and to the rendezvous. No foolish behaviour.

[TrashMan]

Coding civilian AI to do one of these things:

- huddle in some corner inside a house.

- run away from an alien

- run towards soliders, and try to get behind them

- if a civy spots a Chinnok, he hides close to it.