Sadi Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Speed, turning rate, damage and fuel doesn't really make sense to increase because the pilot got more experience. Those are dependant on the craft. Accuracy would require that your plane can acctually miss. As long as the graphics of your shots intersects with the graphics of the enemy (and viseversa) the attack will hit, the only way to miss is if the UFO or your fightr dodges. As far as I understand the way planes are currently coded the pilot and the plane is the same thing. Which means you can't transfer one pilot to the next plane. Which means that pilot you got attached to when you leveled him up becomes obsolete and you can't do anything about it. If the game lets you get attached to your pilot and then forces you to abandon him, I would be pretty unhappy. It would be pretty bad design imo. Furthermore: IMO don't fix what's not broken. Leveling up aircrafts wouldn't really add anything to the gameplay imo. It would just make evrything more complex and messy. Time spent on balanceing what is essentially a minigame could be better spent on balanceing the core of the game or new features. 1. These characteristics have been a proposal so other characteristics are perfectly fine. Since this game is an abstraction from reality anyways, it could be pretty justified to give an experianced pilot some bonus (e.g. in damage - veterans WILL do more damage on the whole, or in speed, turn rate etc), moddeling some pilots improvement in a more abstract way than moddeling the exact physics. All stats are somewhat abstracting thigns from reality and I assume the gain from these abstarction (see 2.) higher as the loss of "highlevel" correctness. 2. Pilots and planes would need to be separated, you would assign pilots to fighters like soldiers to you dropping ship. Pilots need not be equipped, but their ships do. I would propose to add "just" another screen (like the soldiers screen) to the ingame menues. 3. This would be no "fix" and in my eyes it would hugely add to the gameplay (like shown above, how to handle situations where a pilot dies, making the whole air combat more personal). It is justified by the same arguments it is justified for soldiers. Both groups are essentially the same, so both should have the feature or none. Else it feels like something was missing. Balancing is surely a matter, but the gain is tremendous. If it is just not possible, this would be okay for myself, too. But lasty, this is something the devs are deciding. I would like to discuss on the feature itself and not on the implementation issues. best regards Sadi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oracle1990 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Isn't the minigame fun enough as it is? Nope Does experience and stats really add anything to it? Don't know. As I say it is only one - 1 - option to make it better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) 2. Pilots and planes would need to be separated, you would assign pilots to fighters like soldiers to you dropping ship. Pilots need not be equipped, but their ships do. I would propose to add "just" another screen (like the soldiers screen) to the ingame menues. Everyone seems to take that for granted and assume it is possible. But it's never mentioned in the discussion. I believe Chris has said that this just isn't possible in some old thread from dec/jan. Would you still want experience for pilots in the game if they are tied to one plane and can't be transferred? 3. This would be no "fix" and in my eyes it would hugely add to the gameplay (like shown above, how to handle situations where a pilot dies, making the whole air combat more personal). It is justified by the same arguments it is justified for soldiers. Both groups are essentially the same, so both should have the feature or none. Else it feels like something was missing. Balancing is surely a matter, but the gain is tremendous. I feel that the mechanic for leveling soldiers are enhanced by the contrast between soldier growth and vehicles haveing static stats. Well static stats to a degree, weapons (and possibly engines) are going to be upgradable.Contrast is a powerful tool to set an atmosphere and give a certain feel to something. (in movies for instance Hollywood has started useing orange-teal contrast to an overwhelming extent to make actors "pop" out at you from the screen.) If it is just not possible, this would be okay for myself, too. But lasty, this is something the devs are deciding. I would like to discuss on the feature itself and not on the implementation issues. Fair enough. I just wanted to bring pilots likely to be untransferable up so that it is considered and not whined about later on because people have either hyped themselves up or it gets implemented in a way they did not imagine/consider Edited May 12, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 As I have said before, if the air combat isn't enough fun as it stands then it needs to be changed to make it fun. Adding extra complexity into a mechanic that isn't fun is a Very Bad Idea. Adding something that will make it fun however is a good idea. If someone could come up with a good explanation of how this added complexity would make the air combat more fun to play without making it take up too much of the game time then I would be more likely to be swayed. Arguments about how it is done for soldiers so it should be done for aircraft don't cut it. You could just as easily compare the planes to technicians (don't level), scientists (don't level), vehicles (don't level), or base defences (don't level). Right that is enough negativity about the subject I will have a think while I am on my break and see what fun benefits I can think of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Reducing the chances of having all of my aircraft shot down again would be fun :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 And you think that will be reduced by introducing aircraft stat increase thothkins? silly silly redshirt. (I'm going to assume thothkins is playing devils advocate rather than suggesting stats would make it easier to keep his pilots alive) If anything the aliens will have to become harder to accomondate the increased stats of veteran aircrafts. Giving airplanes stats and levels isn't a way to balance the current difficulty. The difficulty would have to be rebalanced down the line to compensate for introducing new things. If you want to balance the current game differently try altering some values in the xml files. People in the modding section will be more then happy to help with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 thothkins takes off Devil's costume shamefully, except the little cute horns... and there's no way he's giving up the toasting fork... :-) hang on, no not aircraft stats, but pilot stats. With the caveats that it can''t be done...man will never sail round a flat earth.. it's insanity etc etc. Yes, it would make things easier. Yes it would require balancing up, unless you actually wanted the game to be easier... but then you'd just choose the easy difficulty level ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) thothkins takes off Devil's costume shamefully, except the little cute horns... and there's no way he's giving up the toasting fork... :-) Aaaw, but you look so cute in that. Especially in that red shirt... Edited May 12, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 thanks. It's was just so me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadi Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 If someone could come up with a good explanation of how this added complexity would make the air combat more fun to play without making it take up too much of the game time then I would be more likely to be swayed. I think I will take some longer post Firstly, you are right in the point that complexity for complexities sake doesnt offer anything. Further I can only judge from the demo, I havent played x-com at all. The following text contains MY point of view, but I am not going to pronounce it every sentence, I hope you dont mind The game consist of 3 main phases and I enjoy base / soldier phases a lot. However I feel the air combat part is lacking. This is a part which will take place about as often as the soldier part but offers far less depths (less objectives and less tiles for instance). Resulting air combat feels like every repeating, ever the same. I decide which planes with which equipment I sent, but I am not connected to it. Lost material is replaced by just the same again. Now, it is not equal in depth to the other parts. Pilots are surely the thing which will change that completely, but they are a step in the right direction. With the backbone of research and equipment to fighters, pilots would make the thing "rounder" through addressing the bold points. Concerning the "game time" - I think pilots would make you more connected to the air phase, but it would not take much more time. You have a screen where you assign (hire and train) pilots, so you just check before intercepting which ones you want to send in which ships. Since you are equiping the fighters anyways, carring for pilots is not that much additional effort in time - though in effect. Time you spent for a more tense air phase is no lost time in my eyes. Additional, they offer further input for more variety in missions, e.g. recover crashed pilots, where you realy WANT YOU ACE BACK You could just as easily compare the planes to technicians (don't level), scientists (don't level), vehicles (don't level), or base defences (don't level). I give you a point in vehicles experiance. Though the kickstarter upgrade offers pilots for vehicles and planes (if any), so there needs to be consistency. Technicans and scientists are not controlled in single units (well they can be, but you are not directly moving them in a phase longer then some seconds. You use them in general, but not in person. You are interested in their numbers but not in the performance of a single unit. Same if you would just decide about the number of soldiers and not their actions. Surely, you could add experaince for them as well, but I think the distinction between soldiers and scientists is farm more clear then the one between soldiers and pilots. Similar applies to abse defence, though I have to admit I did not use it in the demo I hope I could give some reasonable arguments. Please let me think what you think about this Best Regards Sadi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I give you a point in vehicles experiance. Though the kickstarter upgrade offers pilots for vehicles and planes (if any), so there needs to be consistency. I'm confused by what this means. Are you refering to the Vehicle experience option in the survey? That's for vehicle only, not pilots. Chris clearified that in the relevant thread in the announcement forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadi Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Oh, I thing I got it wrong, sorry. I give you that point and retake that sentence. I have to admit that I cannot clarify why pilots should earn experiance and vehicles (the pilots of them) not - or vice versa. Though I have to admit that I would like experiance for both (for vehicle pilots, roughly the same arguments apply) , I dont want to enlarge the discussion in that direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 No, when I say vehicles I mean the machinery, not the theoretical driver. According to Chris when it's time to scrap that experienced veteran tank for a new model your new tank will start from zero. There is no way to transfer any experience. There is no pilot switching etc. http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/1908-Proposed-Stretch-Goals?p=21846&viewfull=1#post21846 Gorlom - vehicles will gain experience. When the vehicle is obselete, you lose that experience. It shouldn't exactly be game breaking though (and someone who is really good at driving an armoured car might not be good at driving the new vehicle anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 No, when I say vehicles I mean the machinery, not the theoretical driver. According to Chris when it's time to scrap that experienced veteran tank for a new model your new tank will start from zero. There is no way to transfer any experience. There is no pilot switching etc. yeah, it kind of loses the point. Someone, possibly your good self, compared it to "Private Tank" and "Sgt tank" but then they will be replaced anyway by 'Private Advanced Tank' down the road. It doesn't do much for me like that. I'd have preferred allocating a soldier from the pool to drive it. He can't come out during the mission but collects mission and kill numbers. Not to be, so it rated very low on my survey return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erutan Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 If 'vehicles' do gain some experience I think the best way to do it is to have a separate soldier skill "driver" or something that they can get points in. I suppose using variants on that you could also jam soldiers into planes as well. I personally think the focus of the game lies in the infantry ground combat and research to support that... if this had mountains of money thrown at it expanding tank/plane roles would be great, but even with kickstarter it's going to come down to getting an extra tileset or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stromko Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 (edited) I would think to have any chance against the aliens, your troops need to be highly specialized and elite. I get the sense that the Xenonauts are cherry-picked as some of the best from units all over the world. It just isn't reasonable to expect a soldier to be world-class in both infantry operations and vehicle operations in other words, so I don't agree with the idea of just having soldiers stand in as pilots and vehicle crew, even though I respect its elegance from a game-play perspective. I think the concept of experience gain in Xenonauts makes the most sense as that even though your soldiers are experienced and highly trained, they've never fought aliens before, and so they're still acclimatizing and rapidly improving as they face this alien threat over and over again. I do think though either vehicle experience has to go in, or they should just go ahead and make the tanks remote controlled (thus expendable). Vehicles aren't worth it for a variety of reasons, and the fact that when they kill an alien they're stealing experience from your troops is really the last straw. Maybe if my first experience with the Ferret wasn't it dying in one shot from a plasma pistol, and the impromptu cover of the tank disappearing two shots later, I'd consider them worthwhile, but as it stands I never deploy them. Having four extra troops instead of a Ferret is just vastly superior, and if one of those troops has a rocket launcher then the Ferret serves absolutely no purpose. For all my griping though, I'm sure this is going to be changed in balancing and based on the xenopedia it sounds like the Ferret is supposed to be able to resist plasma pistol shots at the very least. I really like the art design and the way it works (running over terrain is fun), so I'm definitely willing to keep giving it a try as it gets reworked. It would be sweet to be able to layer on some alien alloy once the requisite research is done and make it an actual tank that can ignore small-arms fire, but obviously that's a dream for the future. Speaking of upgrading vehicles, and the devs apparently saying that crew won't be transferrable, well what about having significant upgrades be available for the vehicles you already have? There's already a Garage tab for managing loadout on these things, it doesn't seem like a stretch to have a slot for Armor upgrades, Drivetrain upgrades, Powerplant, sensor systems, etc. These things could be researched and built in your workshop just like Alenium Missiles for fighters. A Ferret with alloy armor, armored wheels (or an anti-grav option), motion tracker / thermal tracker and an Alenium core would be utterly beastly, and you could definitely handwave that since these upgrades are human-designed that the same crew could acclimate to it no trouble. Maybe even get a fire-prevention upgrade or other crew-survivability tweaks, so that after a mission where a Ferret is disabled you can keep some percentage of the crew and their experience alive. Edited May 12, 2012 by Stromko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 and the fact that when they kill an alien they're stealing experience from your troops is really the last straw. I was just going to post that. For me, vehicles are fire soaks when leaving the transport. Then they are scouts. I will always try to ensure that a trooper makes the shot, even if it means backing the vehicle up and away from the area. This was the case even back in X-Com. Nice to know it wasn't just me :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 and the fact that when they kill an alien they're stealing experience from your troops is really the last straw. For those that have that problem you can allways replace the tank with soldiers that can gain the experience. You don't NEED to send out a tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corporal Hicks Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) I think that vehicles crew or pilots are BS. I also make sure that the soliders take the shots... I only use the vehicles to scout the map and attract fire, nothing else. Instead of vehicles I would prefer little "robot cars", something with a camera on top of them, only to explore the map. They would be remote controle and really fragile, one shot and boom! It's gone Edited May 13, 2012 by Corporal Hicks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Instead of vehicles I would prefer little "robot cars", something with a camera on top of them, only to explore the map. They would be remote controle and really fragile, one shot and boom! It's gone We call those "Rookies" or "Red Shirts". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Remote drones with no fire capability at all - at least until the enemy drones are captured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoMask Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 UFO: Aftershock and Afterlight have drones if you really want drones(different variations, but they do include the wheel one) Though you are able to put weapons in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 drones would be nice... at least as an option following capturing a few of the enemies. UAVs in the real world were in operation in various forms for decades before the setting period, so it's not an impossible leap of faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 People are already complaining that vehicles don't gain experience or have enough upgrades. I don't think adding drones in at this point would help matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 With a drone it removes any need to bother about experience. It won't get any as it's a drone. (unless you research alien AI...must...not...derail...own...post...again...) so it's an alternative option to vehicles altogether (and removes pesky questions like who's driving it) (and replaces them with who's controlling the drone - the pilots are of course!...must...not..derail...) upgrades to your drones are delivered as a consequence of coming across various mechanical foes throughout the game. So, no need to want to add little bits and pieces to it. A new one will be along in due course. Obviously not going to happen as there are a million and one things to do. However, would a mod be able to essentially control the little terror map dronebot thingies at some point and use them as researched drones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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