Sectopods discussion/questions.

[kahvipannu]

Hello fellow Xenonauts.

I have noticed game doesn't have (edit: visual) equivalent to Sectopods (?):

I haven't followed the development of the game, so I don't know if something like this was planned at some moment, or if it was scratched due to time, mechanics, or money.

But most importantly what kind of problems problems in terms of AI pathfinding, adding new alien-race, and such things one could expect trying to start creating one for the game. If there is any?

Is it a viable thing trying to do.

I'm not aware how exactly sprite or animation creation works for the game (I would guess you can make them from 3d models?), but I can make 3d-model, skin, skeleton possibly too, and bone-assignments, but animation isn't a venue I am familiar with.

So any toughts/advice on the matter?

Edited July 10, 2014 by kahvipannu

[silencer]

Androns Elties aren't too good for you ?

[Kiel]

We have large drone instead. Aren't these and tough Andron Elites enough?

[kahvipannu]

I didn't mean it that way, I could had explained a bit better, I did mean visual equivalent. Your right, heavy drones and heavy saucers take theyr role, the game doesn't necessary need Mech for the aliens, but I loved those buggers in the original. Sectopods would have more character/shock-value imo than "just" upgrades from aliens we have met many times before.

So I'm just throwing the idea out, and hoping feedback how viable adding such thing actually is mechanics and actual work wise is.

Edited July 10, 2014 by kahvipannu

[KevinHann]

For what it is worth, I'm strongly encouraging you to have a go at it! I'd absolutely love to see new alien units in and this one is a pretty viable applicant. i think the heaviest work would be supplying the visual material in terms of sprites, the rest will be rather easy in comparison.

[kabill]

It's definitely viable. Apparently, you can't add in entirely new alien races but you can add in classes to existing races without problem (and there's really not any difference as you can make classes as distinct as you like).

So you could just set it up as a Drone class.

[kahvipannu]

So if we would one day have all we need in terms of visual presentation, we could eventually add it in to game, that is very good to know, thank you.

In terms of animations, only ones needed would be walking, shooting, and dying, unless I'm missing something obvious. Moving bones needed would basically be the middle-body, and legs with couple bones. So in that terms it propably wouldn't be most impossible thing ever, but from my experience animations are usually the biggest bumps on road in terms of modding.

I know couple people who might be able to help as last resort, but they are long-shots, not many animators around. There is possibility being some royalty free basic mech animations somewhere too. This all is again based on assumption we have means to turn that animated model to sprites somehow in the first place.

Edited July 10, 2014 by kahvipannu

[KevinHann]

I know couple people who might be able to help, but they are long-shots, not many animators around. This all is again based on assumption we have means to turn that animated model to sprites somehow.

I'm pretty sure that's quite achievable. Didn't Goldhawk go down the same way with all the content we see in the game?

[kahvipannu]

I'm pretty sure that's quite achievable. Didn't Goldhawk go down the same way with all the content we see in the game?

That is the assumption I have too from browsing the forums, but do we have the tools available to us to do the same?

[bonds0097]

Keep in mind that large units don't really work with how the game is currently coded, as far as I can tell. There are some unused units in the assets that were meant to be 2 x 2 tiles large or multi-story but I imagine they were cut because of the difficulty of handling LOS and such.

This may change in the future but it's something to think about for now.

[kahvipannu]

I was kinda thinking this might be the case, since we have only one (?) alien unit in the game atm using multiple-tiles. And that one has ability to move freely in every direction and it seems to pop out and in LOS in weird locations, not attacking much, or that is how it has seemed to me, haven't met many of them, some have worked just fine. I'm wondering would unit like Sectopod be totally broken in-game atm, or just accassionally ackward, or somewhat/pretty much functional in terms how game handles them atm? Including things like LOS and AI-pathfinding and such.

EDIT:

Or the last resort could be giving it 360 degrees view, if possible, which sounds a bit extreme, but idea none the less.

Edited July 10, 2014 by kahvipannu

[silencer]

It all depends what role will Sectopod take. Will it be mobile plasma canon of doom? Will it be just mech type heavy drone? Which race should it accompany.

[kabill]

Keep in mind that large units don't really work with how the game is currently coded, as far as I can tell. There are some unused units in the assets that were meant to be 2 x 2 tiles large or multi-story but I imagine they were cut because of the difficulty of handling LOS and such.

This may change in the future but it's something to think about for now.

Dunno, 3x3 units seem to work fine (c.f. player vehicles, medium and heavy drones). Assuming you made the total-not-a-Sectopod alien like that, I'm really not sure there's any reason why this couldn't work other than actually having the time, skill and resources necessary to make it happen.

[kahvipannu]

I guess it is worth trying then, and do stuff and see where it goes (?). I started making low-poly model for it, it is a tad basic atm, but it is more of an proof of concept than anything else, and a start. I can provide the model and skins and bone stuff as I stated, alongside 2d-assets, but that is where my knowledge goes so far.

Design wise I guess UFO:EU design is good to go mainly. I think it fits quite well in Xeno.

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3841/14435334020_0ddcf4b79c_h.jpg

Edited July 10, 2014 by kahvipannu

[thixotrop]

Man, I admire and envy you for your 3d graphic abilities, you are so fast.

The design looks really like the original game with its round shapes, though I think you should keep the style of the alien technology in Xenonauts.

Maybe more like ED209 form Robocop (1987) but "alienated":

1987 ED209 (from here)

2014 ED209 (from here, haven't seen the movie)

Just a thought, not compulsory for you.

[kahvipannu]

I guess your right, the drones in Xeno do have more "modern" design. Maybe some sort of compromise between the old and "drone"-style, which is pretty close to the style of new ED? I have an idea regarding that. I don't wanna go very high with the model, as the EDs are, and Sectopods in new X-Com, I think it would be easist to keep it 3x3 and height of one for the time being, like the current tanks.

It all depends what role will Sectopod take. Will it be mobile plasma canon of doom? Will it be just mech type heavy drone? Which race should it accompany.

You did see them with Ethereals a lot in the original, so I would think Battleships, and maybe late terror-sites and alien-bases/invasion-force could be theyr thing potentially?

And Plasma-cannon of Doom sounds about right to me How I imagined it would be capable of doing AOE, maybe suppression capability, and just be tough to bring down. In the original they were highly resistant to plasmas, that could ba a thing too, and so on.

Edited July 10, 2014 by kahvipannu

[skaianDestiny]

Try giving it extra curves and streamline it. Look at the drones for example. The aliens don't seem to have much exposed machinery like in the older Xcom.

[kahvipannu]

The design looks really like the original game with its round shapes, though I think you should keep the style of the alien technology in Xenonauts.

Maybe more like ED209 form Robocop (1987) but "alienated":

Try giving it extra curves and streamline it. Look at the drones for example. The aliens don't seem to have much exposed machinery like in the older Xcom.

I took the design from Drones and applied it to the old model. It makes it a bit bulky looking, and I think it could work as shield too from frontal attacks and top ones. I just made the top, more details and shape can be tweaked further (like bend the sides of the top to cover legs from front, body is still shaped as eg, etc...), Side "wings" could even have weapons, make it a bit fighter like, but on legs!

I'm not really the best guy coming up with great designs, so I will let you guys be the judge, and help shape the design. I'm a going to be a bit stuborn changing the "cockpit" and frontal weapons + legs, I do hope it to stay starightaway recognizable as homage to Sectopod, not just mech. Middle body could be something different and bring the fresh look.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2936/14625708532_29d0c06e2b_h.jpg

EDIT:

An example of a bit more "slick" version, just edited "tummy" area and front. Not sure, open for suggestions.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2915/14626430572_09887569ee_h.jpg

EDIT:

Found this post:

We created our sprites by rendering a 3D model from 8 different cameras in Maya at 480x480, then batch processing them in Photoshop to add a 3px (I think) black outline and then shrinking them down to 120x120px.

Then you need to use Playground SDK 5's Filmstrip tool to create spritesheets from the animation sequence. It's a pretty long and involved process, to be honest!

I have no experience with Maya, also it isn't free, altought it seems to have free trial. I used to have access to Autocad resources back in student days, but I doubt those are active anymore. With quick search Playground seems to be free program, it seems a bit bunpy road overall, but yes, this seems to be potentially totally doable as you guys stated.

Edited July 11, 2014 by kahvipannu

[skaianDestiny]

I'm liking the second version. What I'd do is make the "wings" on the top part more pointy, like the wings on the medium and heavy drones.

I'd also do the same to the two "pods" on either side of the "cockpit". The joint where the leg connects to the body could also have some sort of cover over it, the aliens don't seem to be in favor of exposed parts. Overall I think you're on the right track.

[kahvipannu]

I like the more pointy guns idea, I'll do that.

For the top, maybe pointy shape and bend them down, make it more like "turtle" shape? A wild turtlepod appears, and that would cover the legs somewhat too.

The less we actually show the legs, the easier it will become with the sprite stuff

Regarding multiple weaponry, I had ideas for double plasma-beam (Downloaded LT_Parsons mod recently, looks great) maybe, small rapid fire plasma "rockets" for destruction of cover, and if possible maybe small plasma rapid weapon for reactionfire like the small-drones have. Adding multiple things to one alien is possible, right?

Also applying directional armor is possible? Like less armor for rear? I know tanks have it, but can it be applied to alien unit, or can alien be "tank"?

[skaianDestiny]

Looking through aiprops it doesn't seem to be possible to have directional armor or switch between different "primary weapons". You might have to settle for the twin plasma cannon, which should be doable as either a shotgun with two pellets or a gun with 2 bullets in a burst.

Your ideas sound good, can't wait to see them.

[kabill]

Looking through aiprops it doesn't seem to be possible to have directional armor or switch between different "primary weapons".

There's some work arounds for this:

1) For directional armour, you could create a shield-like weapon which basically gives the unit additional HP to the front.

2) For secondary weapons, you could use grenades (and call it a grenade launcher in-game)

[kahvipannu]

Ok, that is very good info, and very good workarounds.

So in theory for the potential dual plasma it could be one shot, but the projectile would be two beams, just for presentation, and stats changed accordingly. if secondary would be shield, which offers protection from front, and some from sides, one could still have grenades, but it would have to switch shield out to use them, or...? Or do you mean you can give primary weapons shield like stats too, so actual specific shield would not be needed leaving secondary open? Also I pressume you could make "secondary grenade" function as rocket, and maybe with multishot?

Or could secondary fire for primary be different type? Single shot beam, secondary fire AOE, would that be possible?

Your ideas sound good, can't wait to see them.

Nothing wrong being optimistic, but let's not go ahead Right now we have nothing yet, and even when we do there is no quarantee it being in the game one day. Lots of trial and error I pressume. Hopefully I will get people on board as we go, all this info people are providing is very good indeed. If nothing else, once I get the stuff done to the point I will hit a wall, I will upload it in hopes someone else could use it.

Edited July 12, 2014 by kahvipannu

[kabill]

So in theory for the potential dual plasma it could be one shot, but the projectile would be two beams, just for presentation, and stats changed accordingly. if secondary would be shield, which offers protection from front, and some from sides, one could still have grenades, but it would have to switch shield out to use them, or...? Or do you mean you can give primary weapons shield like stats too, so actual specific shield would not be needed leaving secondary open? Also I pressume you could make "secondary grenade" function as rocket, and maybe with multishot?

The way I planned to implement this (for something completely different, mind), was to make both the weapon and the shield single handed, which means that they can both be equipped at the same time. So you've have the not-Sectopod Cannon and a single handed weapon and the not-Sectopod Armour Plating as a single-handed shield-item.

The grenades would, in code, be stored in the not-Sectopod's inventory like any other grenade, so wouldn't take up a slot. All you have to do is give it a high STR or the grenades a high range modifier and job done.

[kahvipannu]

That sounds a really legit and viable plan, and just what would be needed, thank you kabill.