Base Defense

[thewatcher]

I know I asked this on the old forms but I wanted to ask again, and maybe get an update as to where Chris/others stand on this subject.

First of I love x-com, own it, played it for years and I love what your doing with this project and cant wait for the beta to come out.

I personalty loved in X-com having my base attacked and getting to use my base defenses to shoot/damage/destroy incoming craft.

Sadly the start of the base attack was just a screen with text and not anything more exciting.

(The start of my wishlist/question rant *deep breath*)

1. Could you take your air combat system and mod it to run base attacks. Aka. You have to do something to help/hurt your chances at hitting or missing the aliens.

2. Base evaluation of non combat personnel. I never understood why, when the base was being attacked. My interceptors never did anything? Maybe add them into the base defense mix prior to the ships landing? (would explain why they left the base)

3. Where my solders spawn. I always found it funny that they would be just all over the place, in a hallway with there backs to an open hanger bay, just to turn around and find 5 heavily armed aliens looking at you (and firing do to reaction). Could we start off in a central place, like a command center or armory?

4. Tanks tanks everywhere. I used to keep a few on hand in my inventory just so I could use them during a base attack. They where ez to replace instead of a soldier Id been working on for a few missions. Please tell me we will not be limited to 12 troops and/or some limited combination. I can understand limitations due to space in the dropship but this is home turf.

5. A little atmosphere. The base is under attack, would a pulsing red alarm light every once and a while be out of the question?

6. No locks? Im sure human bases would have locked doors in such a top notch base. If an alien wanted to get somewhere important couldn't we have them have to "hack" the door code or something?

7. Checkpoint. Any chance of having something like a base upgrade that lets you add "retractable security walls" "These walls installed in the floor of hallway intersections rise up during base defenses to help give your troops cover when protecting key intersections of your base" Same distributable train and if you lose a intersection the aliens can make use of the cover. I'm thinking of a 3x3 cube with each corner having two walls in the case of X intersection and a 1X3 for a T intersection.

I look forward to reading all the reply's.

Edited April 27, 2013 by thewatcher
small corrections / formating

[Chris]

Giving interceptors stationed at the base a chance to either attack the attakcing UFOs or escape would be a valid option. Also, we're hopefully going you let you place your soldiers before the battle starts in the base defence missions. In terms of troop limits, I'm not sure. We'll need a limit somewhere or the GUI won't be able to handle it.

[Elydo]

7. Checkpoint. Any chance of having something like a base upgrade that lets you add "retractable security walls" "These walls installed in the floor of hallway intersections rise up during base defenses to help give your troops cover when protecting key intersections of your base"

Waist-high cover everywhere!

Apoc had in-base security rooms that I never saw do a damn thing, but according to other people they work. But very restrictively, you needed to plan your entire base structure around them. The starting base design has already been talked about a long long time ago, and I'm still waiting to see what it's like in beta before bringing it up again, but we have been told some concession to defence has been included.

I think adding too much to base defence missions could be damaging. Sentry guns, security cameras to provide full base visibility, doors to block off sections etc would change the gameplay significantly, and keep in mind during an alien base assault you're doing, you'll encounter their equivalents.

Destroyable security doors might be doable though, requiring heavy weapons or detpaks to destroy. They could act as choke points or stand-and-hold positions (think the beginning or star wars) Otherwise, another idea might be to handle ground defences the same as air interception defences; build a control room for the facilities and have them automatically engage before the actual base defence mission itself starts, and have them inflict a certain proportion of casualties on the invaders.

Actually, Chris, are the alien bases going to have AA def or suchlike? It'd be a bitch to counter, maybe you'd need to task some interceptors to reduce the defences before a transport could land, or need the development of a higher tier dropship that could survive the approach before a base assault could even be managed.

[anotherdevil]

The starting base design has already been talked about a long long time ago, and I'm still waiting to see what it's like in beta before bringing it up again, but we have been told some concession to defence has been included.

I believe you get to make up your first base however you like it when you first play the game! and/or there will be a premade one for those who don't know what to do/care.

I think adding too much to base defence missions could be damaging. Sentry guns, security cameras to provide full base visibility, doors to block off sections etc would change the gameplay significantly, and keep in mind during an alien base assault you're doing, you'll encounter their equivalents.

Destroyable security doors might be doable though, requiring heavy weapons or detpaks to destroy. They could act as choke points or stand-and-hold positions (think the beginning or star wars) Otherwise, another idea might be to handle ground defences the same as air interception defences; build a control room for the facilities and have them automatically engage before the actual base defence mission itself starts, and have them inflict a certain proportion of casualties on the invaders.

I agree, add too much in base defence and not only do the enemy need to get equivalent, but then why can't I get UAVs with cameras in the missions, or deploy sentry guns there too! Too much stuff for something that may not happen very often seems like a waste of valuable time...

Actually, Chris, are the alien bases going to have AA def or suchlike? It'd be a bitch to counter, maybe you'd need to task some interceptors to reduce the defences before a transport could land, or need the development of a higher tier dropship that could survive the approach before a base assault could even be managed.

Sounds good in theory, but how would you find this out? By sending in your team and having them all die? Well that would suck with your new squad of rookies... and you need to keep protecting the planet, researching new transports, and getting one to replace the old one too!

[Elydo]

I did say it'd be a bitch : P

To be honest, I'd like to get some feedback before weighing in with ideas on how it could work, I have a few but I'm thinking it unlikely that it'd be a factor and even if it were, how it would be handled could be very different from my assumptions.

[anotherdevil]

There was a long list of these and several forum topics devoted to such ideas in the old forum... Just put down your ideas and I'll see if I can remember anything, and I'm sure Sathra and Gazz will help fill in anything I've missed. And Chris of course. He's a big spoil sport like that =p

[thewatcher]

Chris I was more going for the idea of the first stage of base defense being much like the air combat where you get to watch/play a direct roll in how effective your defenses are instead of just seeing text that says "firing" and "hit" or "miss". In tandem with that would be the same damage calculation for air battle for number of dead aliens based on damage from base defense. I believe thats how Xcoms system worked.

Im not so stuck on automated base defense per say in the ground combat faze Im just talking about the first stage when the ship trys to land nearby.

In regards to the doors. Sure, have doors that are locked grading key objectives that take "holding for 5 turns" to "hack" and unlock. Same as holding a downed ship to win.

Any thoughts or response to the atmosphere of the base? Im not sure how hard it would be to add something like a pulsing red light or a flashing sign that says evacuate or maybe just red lighting along the floor. I just always thought the xcom bases looked like another day at the office when under attack.

[anotherdevil]

I think atmosphere of base defence missions will be in for sure! as far as I can remember!

[Sathra]

There hasn't been much talk about how exactly the base defense screen will work.

-Defenses will reduce invading alien numbers (they didn't in X-com, either you destroy the ship or you get the full invader complement).

-Flashing lights are annoying. I'd prefer music for setting the tension, combined with Fog of War (not shroud, that's just silly).

-Vehicles might not be present in base defence. Its one of those things that's a bit iffy (they're pretty big, and why would the Xenonauts have huge corridors everywhere? They've got Garages for vehicles to be stored in.

-Chris mentioned somewhere that we'd likely be limited to 16 soldiers (due to UI), with any others as NPC 'guards'. Pending actual testing of course.

-Locks don't really add anything in my opinion.

-Could always just have sandbags. Would be nice thematically. That and all the various junk in the rooms.

[Elydo]

Keep in mind that the vehicles need to get to the hanger from the garages, so at least some corridors would need to be large enough.

[Sathra]

Depends. They could pick them up outside the base.

Less work adding special corridors between hangars and garages.

Having special corridors just looks odd. Like the bases in UFO: ET. Why would they build them like that?

[thewatcher]

Well if you think about it, they had tanks in Xcom during base defense and if I remember the video from this website the tank is 2X wide so the hallways won’t be huge at all. I think Xcom where 3X hallways.

Let’s say aliens (as a 2nd objective) try to destroy a research lab. In order to for them to get in there they have to hack the door. That gives you enough turns to move troops in and try to stop them. Otherwise when the missions over you find your research is set back by months. (I think I remember something about based on base damage it could effect research and item production) maybe the aliens could go after the radar or alien containment and free a few extra buddies (see #idea for details).

In those kinds of cases it would be nice to have something say "quick the aliens are going for the X" and know I have to fight my way there otherwise I'll be in real trouble. (Just a thought) Same can hold true for alien bases, you try to get to an objective and have to get though something, holding back near by aliens who where alerted to your presence from your direct action. I’m sure you could feed that into the alien AI like a "reaction" having them move to the area where the infiltration was happening. Now im not saying, tell me how many or show me through fog of war just like on a terror mission where the screen would jump and come up with a white box or something like that. *something like "caution, alines have been alerted to your presence"*

Think of it like this, if base damage has a direct impact on research and development or a 2nd win objective for the aliens just happens to be placed during base building (by an inexperienced player) next to a natural spawn point for aliens, say a hanger bay. Then it would only be fair to give the player some reaction time to move units in and try to kill those aliens.

Also, think of it this way. If we get to place our troops ourselves (and we learn where the AI likes to spawn) then we will just place our troops in locations (like outside hangers) and have the mission wrapped up in 1 turn. (though im playing devils advocate here cuz I love this idea) Even if you put an exclusion zone inside the hangers I would just place my troops at the doors ready to move in. Now, if our troops started in one location like a command center or an armory it would only be fair to have some kind of "time buyer" for players to move troops from that location to defend those key 2nd objectives. I’m not saying that just because a doors there a player wont loose the 2nd objective. On that note another idea just hit me. (#idea) What if the primary goal of the aliens was like a jail brake (they go for the containment units to free others you captured for research), or "retaliation" (the extermination of all your soldiers), or "sabotage" where they go after radar, research, production ... that could be a cool game dynamic.

Just some thoughts, I know, im very passionate about this subject - and quite random, sr lol

Edited November 8, 2011 by thewatcher

[Loki45]

I actually like the idea of the flashing lights warning of a base invasion. That would only add to the sense of realism and uncertainty.

[anotherdevil]

Keep in mind that the vehicles need to get to the hanger from the garages, so at least some corridors would need to be large enough.

Or you'd perhaps be forced to build the two adjacent

Flashing lights could be ok, so long as they didn't flash into the players face. I'm thinking more of a rotating red strobe thingy.

@ The watcher:

I believe that the hunter is 3x3 big, but I could be wrong...

How would you know what their secondary objective is?

Edited November 8, 2011 by anotherdevil
Awesome sauce

[Patupi]

I do like the idea of secondary objectives in base missions (Human or alien bases). Being able to damage/sabotage/steal, then flee would be an interesting option without a 'Mission Failed' result, even it if made the score far less. Perhaps you could specify that you were planing on a 'raid' rather than a 'destroy/capture base' this could be the primary objective instead, and completely taking the base/destroying it would be secondary? Just a thought.

I don't think limited cameras or sentry guns would remove the feel of the game. For starters, think how things look on security cameras and how much you could actually see to represent this in game. I think any such cameras (especially given the era the game is based on) would have limited views, poor detail resolution and would be rather large, obvious and easy for the aliens to destroy. This would apply more to sentry guns... but if they weren't valid how about weapon slits? Make some tough door/wall sections (checkpoints?) with slits you could fire through/look through with minimal exposure to the enemy.

If cameras are used there certainly should be severe limitations to their use. Even if you could place thousands of cameras around a base you'd have to have someone monitoring ALL of those cameras. Think CRT wall screens! Way too much info overload! Putting a few cameras at key locations (access to base, alien containment, armory etc) would be acceptable, but of course they can be taken out by enemy fire, as previously stated.

[Chris]

Animated lights are a nice idea and I'd like to put them in, but they're just like any other animated terrain tile - a luxury. We'll add them if we have the time and the money, just like I'd like to add swaying grass tiles etc too.

In terms of base defences, there won't be cameras or sentry guns etc. I think there will be quite a lot of sandbag barriers set up in the corridors and stuff so your troops (and the aliens) will have something to hide behind and it won't just become a shooting gallery.

Although, I guess, cameras could be possible. If they were at some junctions and just revealed a certain area around them, and the AI was bright enough to shoot them out, then they could be quite an interesting touch. But again, very much a luxury.

[thewatcher]

Chris any thoughts about the door idea and troop placement/alien spawn idea inside the human base?

[anotherdevil]

Oh Chris, don't forget about the ribbed corridors you always see in spaceship movies. The ones with the little ribs running vertically down the walls. Those could be used for cover!

[Gauddlike]

Using interceptors in base defence is already possible.

If you see a ship coming towards your base you attack it, if you don't see it coming then you get out quick.

If the alien ship doesn't vanish for some reason once it has unloaded its troops you can always attack it on the way out.

The air terror missions that Chris talked about a while back could be used for your base defence though.

Only difference is that your own defences would show up on the screen and could be destroyed.

That would mean base defences would either need to be really tough or easily replaced.

Those defences would be unlikely to destroy a ship attacking your base but they could reduce numbers that make it to the ground.

Unless you build massed batteries anyway.

The only question then is if it would be much fun playing those missions?

[Chris]

I don't really understand how controlling the base defences would be any fun given that they can't move and you'd want to be shooting at the main troop carrying ship in the formation anyway. Doesn't sound very interesting to me.

For lockable doors etc, they don't really grab me. I don't think you'd have many doors in a base capable of standing up to alien firepower if a battle tank can't do it (why 'hack' anything if you've got a plasma cannon in your hand). For the soldier plaement, what was the question again? I do want to let people place their troops before the battle begins.

[thewatcher]

Im just trying to point out that if the aliens attacked say, fort nocks, the doors arnt just going to be open, I would hope the same holds true for the alines trying to attack my base, that doors wont just let them into rooms, the alines should have to "do something" to the door (blow it up, cut through it, hack its security). In x-com that lack always bugged me.

The question was, alines spawn where when attacking a base (service lift/hanger) Ok, can I place my troops in the hanger and service lift (guessing not/exclusion zone) fine, ill place all my troops at the entrance of each hanger, and 1 tile outside the service entrance. (what happens next) I open door, toss in grenade, shoot everything, maybe move my tank inside the hanger. *level over in 1 -2 turns* (was it fun?) not so much? (was it better then xcom's base attacks?) in xcom the random troop placement was worse. (why?) because my guys would be spread too thin and one poor soul would have his back to an open hanger and have to take on 5 alines by himself *and get shot at for turning around * (ok how can we solve this?) start the troops in one location like a command center is a possible idea

Edited November 9, 2011 by thewatcher

[thewatcher]

O and about controlling base defenses, lets say, there is a list of targets such at "mothership engines" "mothership life-support" "mothership bridge" and so on. You chose what to target, one of those will randomly (on the back end) be a "crittical hit" resulting in the ship crashing, and maybe one-two others mean bad damage, and all the others, no effect because of armor.

I just want to see something more animated then "fire ... hit/miss"

[brad]

I would like to see an occasional base attack that's from an alien containment breach, rather than from an alien dropship/strike force attacking from the outside.

It would probably only work if the player had a live Chryssalid-like, psionic, or self-replicating alien in containment. The alien could infect or psi-control Xenonaut personnel, raid the armory, and attempt to either broadcast the base's location to alien forces or destroy the base outright.

[Sathra]

Could always limit the rooms you can place troops into, as well as limit number per room. Since there would be more entry points than just the lift and hangars (and garages I guess), you wouldn't be sure where to place, but you'd have a good idea.

Not sure if they'd have time to aim at something flying in a top speed. But having some interactivity would be good.

Didn't someone bring up have different 'defense-strike' commands? Like, allow to get close, then unload. Ripple fire. Volley fire. Stuff like that.

Could have the defense screen something like space invaders. All your defenses at the bottom, you set them (either each or a percentage of them, say 25%) to a fire mode, then watch the results and see if you miss or hit or it dodges.

Maybe 2 turns of this. Escorts could intercept defense fire (either bodyguard style or shooting it down), making ripple more effective, but it does less damage since there's (for example) no armour reduction.

Still tedious, but it does let you do something instead of wait.

[Lobster Man Commander]

I have some ideas on this topic.

My mindset is split into two parts:

1 mindset is:

I want to feel scared and sort of powerless because there is a more or less "huge" battleship unloading a huge alien attack force of unknown composition and power right into my precious installation.

That sense of fear would come from: "the general theme of the game", and the frightening thought of loosing all that invested time/money and experienced personnel, or at least having parts of the base UN-operable for some time after the attack (in the event of a successful defend) -with the costs associated.

2nd mindset:

The Xenonaut base is our "hometurf" and should feel like it.

I want to be able feel like I have the upper hand at least in some way.

Maybe in intelligence -cameras, sensors/alarms. Or maybe in some sort of action -being able to alter the battlefield to my advantage, deploy robots/drones/defense either static or active. Or perhaps some sort of element of surprise that would demoralize or at least put the aliens off their A-game, without seriously unbalancing the game. This, even after I, as the player have acquired all weapon tech in the game.

I think this difficulty balance is important in all aspects of the game, and the unquestionably hardest part is to find that balance.

Fun can come in many ways, but being teabagged by aliens in one of my bases after thinking I have done more then enough to be able to at least stand a chance is often an OFF-putting factor, at least for me. And definitely leads to a "load-and re-load game" sort of thing for me.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Lobster Man Commander