Auto airstrike expiring UFO crash sites!

[StellarRat]

If a crash site is about to expire there should be an automatic airstrike on the site. This would allow you to remove the airstrike option completely from the intercept menu if you want to (although some people may still want the option just to clean up the map.) Either way, I can't see any reason why the player would specifically have to call the airstrike. Just letting the site expire should be good enough. It would also make the game a little simpler and easier for beginners.

[vaultdweller]

Seconded.

[llunak]

I disagree. This is almost like asking to be allowed to do a ground combat on a site that's about to expire. Managing crash sites is a matter of prioritization.

[StellarRat]

I disagree. This is almost like asking to be allowed to do a ground combat on a site that's about to expire. Managing crash sites is a matter of prioritization.

But since you don't have do anything other than click a button to finish the job and the outcome is always positive what's the downside? Wouldn't X-Com standard procedure be to airstrike all sites that they don't want to recover? Why would you not want to airstrike a site that was going to disappear, so you at least get something for it?

[llunak]

What if you do want to recover a site but fail to get there in time? Either you airstrike the site immediately when you see/decide you're not going to do a ground attack, in which case this is not going to buy you much, or you intentionally delay/avoid the airstrike because of a ground attack, in which case the aliens are not going to tell that they're about to leave and that you'd better bomb them.

[StellarRat]

What if you do want to recover a site but fail to get there in time?

I'm talking about the auto-strike happening right at the moment the crash site is going to disappear i.e. the computer has decided to erase it and you aren't going to get there no matter what. That's better than getting absolutely nothing for it.

[Ryodan]

If anything maybe a timer for time to expire OR for time since shot down next to the icon. The second option allows you room to wonder how much time is left still which I prefer.

[StellarRat]

I'm just not seeing the arguments against this. Why a countdown timer and not an auto airstrike? You have to assume that someone is keeping an eye on the site. We talking about someone at XCom headquarters simply picking up a phone to the nation intel/military and saying, "UFO crash site at location XXX is going cold. XCom will not be prosecuting a recovery." You guys are way over thinking this.

Edited December 17, 2013 by StellarRat

[llunak]

I'm talking about the auto-strike happening right at the moment the crash site is going to disappear i.e. the computer has decided to erase it and you aren't going to get there no matter what. That's better than getting absolutely nothing for it.

I know what you're talking about. But you seem to be missing my point - _how_ is the computer supposed to know you didn't want to do a ground mission, especially since you didn't airstrike it yourself the moment the UFO was shot down? If you shot down 3 UFOs at the same time, wanted to do ground missions for all of them, so didn't airstrike any of them, and failed to get to some of those in time, why should you be rewarded for failing?

[a_beorning]

UFO downed. Three logically possible outcomes:

1. Aliens repaired UFO and disappeared to continue their atrocities

2. Xeno send a team to recover

3. Military Air Forces send a squadron to airstrike.

If both Xeno and Military slowpoking - outcome 1.

Why do not Military airstrike as soon as UFO downed? Two variants:

a) they do not know where, and waiting info from Xeno or

b) Xenos said "we send our crew" and asked Military to wait some time.

Both variants it's Xeno (player) to decide.

Xeno can ask Military to strike immediately (if they cannot send a team).

Xeno can wait sometime (for example team is returning from another mission and must refill&reload).

If Xeno wait too long - outcome 1, aliens are away. Xeno do not know how much time exactly is "too long". Military do not know too.

It means "no automatic last second airstrike".

Anytime between UFO downing and UFO escaping Xeno can start operation.

Anytime between UFO downing and UFO escaping Xeno can call military to initiate airstrike.

If neither is done - aliens escaped and relation with country's military begin to corrode: "We could nuke them anytime but, thank to you, we just sit and f###g let them fly away! Are you sure you are working for us humans?!"

And another idea - maybe too much to implement:

When relation (and therefore coordination!) are not in a best shape, Army refused to "take order from that amateurs".

We still can call for airstrike (it's their responsibility zone).

But bull-headed generals can decide to airstrike without our call. We fly to crashsite - and target is gone. Nuked.

Or even worse: (N)-th turn of ground combat. Message on all frequencies:

"This area will be nuked in 10 turns. Everybody evacuate immediately! Repeat: This area will be nuked in 9 turns..."

During these 10 turns player still can normally win or normally cancel mission.

After (N+10)-th turn mission cancelled automatically.

Everybody not onboard is dead.

All salvage not carried to dropship in hands or backpacks is forfeited.

[StellarRat]

UFO downed. Three logically possible outcomes:

1. Aliens repaired UFO and disappeared to continue their atrocities.

Actually, this option is not possible. The aliens die in our atmosphere long before they have any hope of fixing a crashed ship. Remember there life support is gone once the ship goes down (hull punctured, ship immovable.) There is no leaving for them. Their last act is probably to self-destruct the ship.

[squigoth]

I'd like to see a time to expiration counter next to the wreck because I like to let wrecks sit till its day light out (most of the time). Or at least have the game stop and ask if you want to airstrike the site right before it expires.

[StellarRat]

I'd like to see a time to expiration counter next to the wreck because I like to let wrecks sit till its day light out (most of the time). Or at least have the game stop and ask if you want to airstrike the site right before it expires.

That would be fine by me too. The message could be something like, "National forces report the aliens appear to be preparing to self-destruct their ship! They are requesting permission to launch an airstrike. Confirm?" Edited December 17, 2013 by StellarRat

[Sapare]

That would be fine by me too. The message could be something like, "National forces report the aliens appear to be preparing to self-destruct their ship! They are requesting permission to launch an airstrike. Confirm?"

Why exactly are we airstriking it if they were going to do the job for us?... The whole airstriking thing makes little sense in context of the game..

[Gauddlike]

If you get a positive outcome for airstriking the site then the player should need to do it otherwise they are getting rewarded for doing nothing.

If you are paying attention and managing the sites then you gain more reputation than if you forget to send a ground mission or airstrike in.

It isn't the only way of doing it though.

For the sake of an example lets say you get 100 rep for downing an aircraft, 50 for hitting it with an airstrike, 0 for letting it expire.

You could give an auto airstrike which gives the player 50 rep for ignoring it completely.

A simpler way would be to just award 150 for downing the aircraft, 0 for an airstrike and 0 for doing nothing.

It has exactly the same final impact on funding and removes any need to use the airstrike manually unless you want to clean up your map.

Any ground mission rep rewards would need to be reduced by 50 of course to maintain current reward total as you have already gained 50 more than you would have otherwise.

It is a few number changes instead of adding a new mechanic.

[StellarRat]

Why exactly are we airstriking it if they were going to do the job for us?... The whole airstriking thing makes little sense in context of the game..

Because the "Airstrike" is also a recovery mission by the national forces (this is one reason I disagreed with the option being called "Airstrike" in the first place.) If aliens self-destruct their ships there is nothing to recover i.e. no money, no tech.

[llunak]

Arguments based on how things work in reality work only so far, and I think they don't work here, in a game where one helicopter is sent where otherwise a small army would probably show up. For example, since some aliens are staying in their ship the whole time, any airstrike to kill them would need to be devastating, powerful enough to destroy anything inside the UFO, including anything of value. Trying to call it 'recovery mission by the national forces' doesn't work either, why call the Xenonauts if some local army can do it as well? It's also unlikely anybody would be able to tell for how long a crash site is going to stay or whether the aliens are going to self-destruct, because nobody can see what's going on inside the UFO without shooting everything in their way first. And e.g. Androns are unlikely to die from oxygen poisoning.

The airstrike option is a device that tries to improve the gameplay, and so it primarily matters to discuss if it helps or not, and here it matters to discuss if automatic airstrike is worth it or not. And, as I said above, I think it isn't:

- you can airstrike anything right after it's been shot down, so there's little to be gained from it being automatic

- if you don't airstrike it immediately, you presumably have other plans with it, and if the site disappears before you manage to do it, why should the game reward you for missing out?

- removing the airstrike option would be confusing, because it would make some people think they need to do all ground missions, so it'd be back to square one and there goes the argument about it being simpler and easier for beginners (and you can write it down somewhere as much as you want, some people would miss it)

[StellarRat]

- you can airstrike anything right after it's been shot down, so there's little to be gained from it being automatic

- if you don't airstrike it immediately, you presumably have other plans with it, and if the site disappears before you manage to do it, why should the game reward you for missing out?

- removing the airstrike option would be confusing, because it would make some people think they need to do all ground missions, so it'd be back to square one and there goes the argument about it being simpler and easier for beginners (and you can write it down somewhere as much as you want, some people would miss it)

My main thought is that it is one less thing to be remembered when you're busy with other button clicking and removes the need to even have an airstrike option in the game. But I think I already mentioned both of those. A beginner would see the first auto airstrike and immediately know that that's what happens if you ignore a crash site. I don't see how it would confuse them. As far as the national forces being able to do a "recovery" maybe that is the wrong term, maybe it should be "salvage". Edited December 17, 2013 by StellarRat

[StellarRat]

If you get a positive outcome for airstriking the site then the player should need to do it otherwise they are getting rewarded for doing nothing.

And one of your staff members pickup the phone and tell someone to finish off a crash site is "doing something"? I don't buy that. Besides, you did do something, you shot down the UFO. That's seems like enough work to get whatever the airstrike gains you in $$.

[Ol' Stinky]

I'd like to see a time to expiration counter next to the wreck because I like to let wrecks sit till its day light out (most of the time). Or at least have the game stop and ask if you want to airstrike the site right before it expires.

I think that's part of the fun, though: do I wait a bit longer to make the mission safe, or do I risk the night time mission?

Mulling over it, I'm in support of the OP's suggestion. Right now, I believe crashsite won't vanish if you have a chinook or similar on the way? Like in the original XCOM. So it's pretty easy to exploit this to get around expiry timers. But the current price of being too late is severe, meaning it has to be this way.

If that first downed carrier gets an airstrike instead of vanishing completely, though, at least the player will get something for shooting down the new UFO.

[StellarRat]

I think that's part of the fun' date=' though: do I wait a bit longer to make the mission safe, or do I risk the night time mission?[/quote']I don't think crash site have variable "life spans" though. So, there is no wondering. You have 24 hours (I think) to get there. If the life span were highly variable I could see your point.

[Gauddlike]

Valid if you can remember exactly when you created each crash site.

Otherwise not knowing when the 24 hours started means you don't really know when it will end.

And one of your staff members pickup the phone and tell someone to finish off a crash site is "doing something"? I don't buy that. Besides, you did do something, you shot down the UFO. That's seems like enough work to get whatever the airstrike gains you in $$.

I was pretty sure you got a boost in nation relations for shooting down the craft so you already get a reward.

I am not sure why you should get rewarded twice, especially if the second reward happens if you do absolutely nothing.

The player is looking at the crash sites, deciding which ones are worth doing and clicking to airstrike the ones that aren't or that they don't have the capabilities to take out.

For doing this the player is rewarded, even if it is a minor reward.

By ignoring crash sites and allowing them to do what they want completely without intervention the player is not rewarded.

They do nothing so gain nothing.

It isn't that hard a concept to buy into.

[vaultdweller]

A comment or two in this thread seemed to be unclear on one thing, so to make sure it's clear to anyone who hasn't been following recent changes: there is NO national relations impact from crash site recoveries or airstrikes. After you shoot down a UFO, nothing you do or don't do matters for your reputation.

As for the reasoning behind this change: as StellarRat is saying, remembering to manually click the button is just another micro-management detail that doesn't add anything to the game. There is no possible scenario where the player will NOT want to airstrike a crash site that is about to expire. Manually issuing the command is just forcing the player to do busy-work that the game knows that the player needs to do anyway. Having the player issue the command isn't having the player make a strategic choice. There is no strategic trade-off - the player isn't weighing the value of airstriking or abandoning the crash site.

If the crash sites had variable expiration times and the player had to evaluate their chance to reach the target up until the last minute, then my opinion on this might be different, but I don't think that's the case. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but crash sites have a static time-to-live, and never expire if their is a transport en route. Terror missions have variable durations, but I don't think that's the case with crash sites.

[Gauddlike]

Actually you are wrong on a couple of points.

Firstly it appears that negative impact for ground missions (lost troops etc) does affect your nation relations, probably just a leftover though and likely to be fixed.

Secondly there is a trade off.

The player has to decide if they want to work through the sites and decide which are going to be hit by an air strike and which they will leave alone to send ground missions to.

If they do this then they get a reward (cash not reputation) if they don't do it they get no reward.

They are spending their time in order to gain something that makes their game life easier.

To make the airstrike automatic may as well mean removing the feature completely as it serves no purpose.

Just notify the player the first time a crash site vanishes that someone else dealt with it and here's some cash for free.

To be clear I have no objection to the process being automatic, I only object to the player being rewarded for doing nothing.

Especially as they are already rewarded for shooting the ufo down so what is the second reward for if they take no further action?

All an automatic airstrike does for me is replace the lore reason for the site vanishing from the map.

No they didn't escape to space/die of oxygen poisoning/self destruct their ship, they got hit by an airstrike, such is the (short) life of an alien invader.

[Sapare]

I only object to the player being rewarded for doing nothing.

Which is the root problem of why the air-striking thing is a bad idea. When you are using it atm you are literally doing nothing too.

You shot down the UFO, and then get money. If it is kept the way it is it should be automatic because currently it is simply 'busywork'(extremely simple busywork but your actions are as simple as 'click on crash site, click on airstrike').