anotherdevil Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 well hopefully there would be a button to scroll through the grenade options, that makes sense. I don't know, I think it is a good idea, because I personally didn't use grenades much unless I was booby trapping the entrance to places with proximity grenades. And I think that is a big waste, grenades for me were really under-utilized, and they shouldn't have been Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 i guess the scroll button could work. but you would still never be able to have one at the ready this way. you would always have to perform all of them inventory shuffling at the moment you wanted to throw the grenade. and yes grenades were very underutilized in X-Com. I think they just took too long to use. Remember it taking 30 TU's or so to "prime" the grenade after equiping it and often times you wouldn't even have enough time to throw it in the same turn. you were better off just autofiring the problem away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamkyon Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 There's this well-nigh ancient thread on making the use of grenades (and other inventory items that aren't primary weapons) less fiddly. Do you find any of the concepts sketched out therein workable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 im not sure. many ideas, but many of them keep a soldiers hands tied behind his back. many of the "quick-equip" ideas are ok, but they should be optional so that the actual inventory screen system isn't sacraficed. many of these ideas assume a controlled setting, not unpredictable "real world" situations. what about using a grenade on the ground? it wouldn't be "quick equipable." And what about having one ready to go for another turn? My biggest problem is the primary/secondary weapon idea. Players don't have to be able to fire a rifle with one hand, but they still need access to their other hand. It seems to me that since that system is included, there are now mulitple new problems to address, and the game is drifting away from its mission. I feel very strongly about this problem. It is a MASSIVE alteration in a system that beautifully builds on X-com's structure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 what about using a grenade on the ground? it wouldn't be "quick equipable." And what about having one ready to go for another turn? While those aren't covered, those are extreme situations. picking one off the ground 'should' cost more AP, it's a lot harder to do that grab one off your belt. And what do you mean ready for another turn? There will be no timed primes in Xenonauts, grenades blow up where they land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 thats a good thing, but you could still have one in your hand and ready to throw. and how else would you throw the grenade on the ground? it should cost more AP, but again, then you're back to the drop the gun or stuff it in your backpack problem. you really can't pick ANYTHING up and throw it. and sometimes, thats something you want to do with flares, grenades, even weapons and ammo have to be redistributed in some cases. maybe even dragging a wounded soldier out of harm's way. I can use my imagination about a shoulder strap with grenades, but what about everything else? medkits, flares, demolition charges... I think if if we had access to both hands we could envision a strap assisting in those situations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 If you want to throw a grenade off the ground pick it up to an available slot first. As for the others medikits, demolition charges etc tend to be quite bulky and would be incredibly difficult to use while holding a rifle in the other hand. Surely in your realistic view it makes more sense to put the rifle down while bandaging a comrade? Placing and priming a demolition charge would also surely be easier if you weren't lugging that machine gun along in your other hand as well right? I feel it is better in general to keep the interface simple. If you need to pick something up then free up a hand or move it directly to your backpack etc. I agree that throwing items around may be more difficult in xeno than in x-com but it was something I very rarely used so doesn't concern me. The exception to that being grenades and hi-ex but that will be covered by the grenade button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Well, you don't need a free hand to pick anything up off the ground etc in the current system. You can go straight from ground >> backpack without altering what is in your hand at all, so I don't see the issue there. If we put in the new quickthrow grenade slot, which I'm thinking will let you select any grenade / flare etc in your inventory and throw it (without opening your inventory) at throw cost + 12AP (or something) if you have both hands full, that should get around the crippling problem at the moment. The 12AP cost would not be paid if you have a free hand. The two-hand thing is mostly about making 1-handed weapons useful, and making the system intuitive. How will a complete newbie know that equipping a rifle in each hand is a really silly thing to do? They won't know whether the accuracy is naturally low or not. And even if you got around that problem, then I don't really see the benefit of having a weapon in your hand that is basically useless - unless you want to throw a grenade, which you can do using the above method. So I kinda get where you're coming from but I think the new grenade button will ease a lot of the problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 it would work, but i still think the system is being overcomplicated in order to "keep it simple." It doen't seem intuitive to me to have to pick an item up, put it on your belt (or other inventory location), then move it back to your hand and throw it. We ALL know how precious our AP are. and if the constant shuffling of inventory items ISN'T killing AP, thats another problem in my opinion. if you don't think holding a rocket launcher in one hand and a machine gun in the other is silly im not sure a tutorial is all you need. but if thats what's holding us back, I think the system could disable a two-handed weapon if both hands weren't dedicated to it, somehow. would that not satisfy all of our complaints? you get all of your new ideas implemented, and the X-Com purests get to keep their beloved inventory system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It doen't seem intuitive to me to have to pick an item up, put it on your belt (or other inventory location), then move it back to your hand and throw it. You don't, that's the entire point. It's a button on the GUI that lets you select any grenade in the soldier's inventory without actually opening the inventory, and then throw it. All without opening the inventory or moving anything to or from his hands. I honestly don't see how anything could be less complex than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 I understand that the player would not be the one moving things around like this, but in reality, the items are being reorganized, right? We aren't going to be able to magically shift items from place to place without using AP, are we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 this whole system may sound good on paper, but I can think of so many areas of complication, so many instances where you would be limited in your actions on the battlefield. It is overall much less intuitive than a system developed 20 years ago and I don't understand why it would have to be like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 if the grenade is in your inventory, you can throw it quickly. regardless of what weapon you are carrying, though a single one handed weapon means it costs you less. that bit is sped up. what else do you want improved? Using med kits (easily requires 2 hands), throwing grenades from the ground (how often do you do that? I can see why this one is not being included, it would take heaps more time). But at the same time as having this improvement for one aspect, you also say that it's not good at all!? What exactly is broken with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The system doesn't shift anything around. It allows you to use a grenade from anywhere in your inventory for +12AP if you have a weapon in both hands. If you don't have a weapon in your hand, it is free. Your system would allow you to carry a gun and a grenade, but would effectively make the gun useless while you held a grenade. So you're basically just holding a grenade. Once you've thrown it, you're holding a rifle again. Exactly like our propsed new system....except how are people meant to know intuitively that having a rifle in one hand and a grenade in the other gives you an accuracy penalty? Is there one in the original X-Com? If there is, I'm not aware of it because it's never been communicated to me. Also, the original X-Com never really had to deal with single-handed weapons. Or, rather, it dealt with them by making them totally useless. That's not really an option for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 suggestion Chris, could grenades held in the 'belt' slots be thrown for less? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) Pretty sure there was in X-com. It was all about that precious percentage, remember? You could improve it by crouching, lower it by using only one hand. And one handed weapons (pistols) were VERY effective in X-com because they were so quick to fire. They weren't really very strong, but you could almost always get a shot off when you wouldn't have been able to with a rifle. and they were great to use with ONLY one hand. I was a big fan of the pistol/stun rod combo. *edit* anyone who ever tried to fire the rocket launcher with their back-up pistol in their other hand learned real fast not to do that again!!!** So it is going to take the same amount of time to get into the backpack or the belt? that doesn't make sense either, what is the point of the belt? why not just a massive spot called "inventory"? Thats what made the backpack great, you could take anything you wanted in it, but you wouldn't be able to use them very usefully until you had them more accesable. And throwing grenades for free? fuck just give me a pistol and a backpack full of grenades!!!! seems a little unbalanced to me. now what, make a limit on the number of grenades thrown per turn regardles of how much AP you have? commander the same as rookie? Why not just make it so you can move anything in the inventory for free? because this a turn based game based on using points to perform actions. Edited January 21, 2012 by BigityBalzworth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 easy way to fix any issue with pistol + backpack full of grenades would be the grenades weight. if they reduce your TU enough it wont be that benefitial to bring so many grenades. also the reason to have a belt and backpack instead of one big inventory is that you acctualyl have to fit the size of weapons combatshields medpacks and such in there. cant really fit a rocket on the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 you can't fit a rocket on the belt, but if there's no difference, why would it matter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 And throwing grenades for free? fuck just give me a pistol and a backpack full of grenades!!!! seems a little unbalanced to me. now what, make a limit on the number of grenades thrown per turn regardles of how much AP you have? commander the same as rookie? Why not just make it so you can move anything in the inventory for free? because this a turn based game based on using points to perform actions. No no you don't throw grenades for free. It still costs, it's just that if you have a 2 handed weapon it costs +12 EXTRA to throw grenades than it would with one hand free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 and how is throwing 10 grenades in one turn and then having a full load of AP to use a reasonable system? and couldn't you just drop your weapon for say 5 AP(guessing) throw 5 grenades for free and pickup the weapon again?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 No no you don't throw grenades for free. It still costs, it's just that if you have a 2 handed weapon it costs +12 EXTRA to throw grenades than it would with one hand free well that's good news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I didnt even spot that you thought the nades were free instead of without penalty. BigBalzworth you really should spend a bit more time reading the posts. The bit where you thought everything was rearranged in the inventory from the quickslot caused a bit confusion as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 I didnt even spot that you thought the nades were free instead of without penalty. BigBalzworth you really should spend a bit more time reading the posts. The bit where you thought everything was rearranged in the inventory from the quickslot caused a bit confusion as well. well i got the idea from chris's posted saying "The system doesn't shift anything around. It allows you to use a grenade from anywhere in your inventory for +12AP if you have a weapon in both hands. If you don't have a weapon in your hand, it is free." It was a little shocking, but since it has been clarified, i think we can move on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigityBalzworth Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) will there be any other items we can use without equiping them? maybe a motion scanner. will there be a motion scanner? i never used that, but im sure others did Edited January 21, 2012 by BigityBalzworth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 there may well be a motion scanner, but how would you use that without carrying it around in your hand? The grenade is an exception because it is a fast, one off action. Pull grenade out, pull pin off, throw, done. Motion scanner, you pull it out, you wave it around (depending on how it works), you look and study the screen/readings, etc. med kits clearly require two hands to use. I would argue that even demo charges need 2 hands, though if they're like satchel charges maybe not so much. What else is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.