Bought yesterday - Uninstalled today

[svidangel]

Suspect he meant release candidate.

[MisterLock]

Oh god...To the OP...

One thing...The game is Early Beta=Not finished...

Note the ''Early''...It's Kinda an advanced Alpha...There are still plenty of features to add into the game and fix bugs as development goes...

It's not nearly a finished game...But it's playable and the devs want all the feedback they can get from people who test the game.

[RawCode]

GizmoGomez

feature you described called weighted random and multiple implementations available free, it work a bit different:

each possible map register at pool handler with default weight, each time map selected, its weight reset to zero, when map not selected it's weight increased by 1*map's ratio, but never exceed default weight.

If map A selected, its weight automatically reset to zero, this means that it just cannot be selected two times in row, it just not possible since it will have weight of zero on next pick.

On next pick other map is selected, map A weight increased to 1*map's ratio, this means, it can be selected again, but chances are slim, becouse other maps in pool can have weight of 50 or ratio can be 0.00001

Default weight and map's ratio can be set separately,some maps can be very rare (low default weight) other can have very long cycle time (low ratio), thers can have "midrange" values.

This will allow special maps and many other features such improvement will make game much better

[DaWu]

Oh god...To the OP...

One thing...The game is Early Beta=Not finished...

Note the ''Early''...It's Kinda an advanced Alpha...There are still plenty of features to add into the game and fix bugs as development goes...

It's not nearly a finished game...But it's playable and the devs want all the feedback they can get from people who test the game.

My friend what you describe here is an ALPHA. There is no BETA whithout all features on board.

I did not moan about the plenty CTD I had. I did not moan about the not working saving of arrow key assigments for scrolling.

But I wondered about the missing texts and the poor amount of maps.

I read here that random maps are not working. Who says so? Did we ever see a random map? Random maps may be chaotic. May be empty or scattered with stuff all over the place. thats the effect of randomness and part of the enjoy - you dont know what you will expect.

Every Remake of an oldschool RTB classic game Fails because they Change the core elements which are the most fun of those games.

Either they make it real time or they cut off Features, random maps and so on.

I can not understand this. Just do a 1:1 XCOM Remake with modern graphics god damn it

Edited July 5, 2013 by DaWu

[Mytheos]

I have to disagree. Beta has all features, text, balance. It is a bug hunter and fine-tuning. The current state of the game has been stated as beta but it is obvious it is not a beta, yet.

You must be kidding me. Release means the game is bug-free and balanced. I wonder where you have taken these specifications from. Noone has ever told me that a released game is 90% ready.

Not sure what games you have been playing but...

No game is ever bug free, short of something like Super Mario on NES, modern games ARE released with bugs, sometimes many. Also modern games are released with exploits, and various balance issues.

Just because they dont patch and resolve balance issues doesnt mean they arent there.

Ever heard the phrase "Patch Notes" what do you think they are patching? Every MMO ever released gets patched for bugs and balance, Borderlands 2, Bioshock, Skyrim, the list of games that have post release patches is immense.

And the ones that dont, if you asked the devs anyways, would tell you we WOULD patch it, and it needs 1 or 2 but that costs money and the powers that be said it wasnt worth it.

Even XCOM94 had post release patches.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Mytheos

[Mytheos]

My friend what you describe here is an ALPHA. There is no BETA whithout all features on board.

I did not moan about the plenty CTD I had. I did not moan about the not working saving of arrow key assigments for scrolling.

But I wondered about the missing texts and the poor amount of maps.

I read here that random maps are not working. Who says so? Did we ever see a random map? Random maps may be chaotic. May be empty or scattered with stuff all over the place. thats the effect of randomness and part of the enjoy - you dont know what you will expect.

Every Remake of an oldschool RTB classic game Fails because they Change the core elements which are the most fun of those games.

Either they make it real time or they cut off Features, random maps and so on.

I can not understand this. Just do a 1:1 XCOM Remake with modern graphics god damn it

The vagueness of the terms Alpha and beta are my point exactly. See how many different interpretations there are from the replies?

And I for one am enjoying Xenonauts and DO NOT want a 1:1 remake.

I want what the original developers WOULD have made if they had the modern technology we have and were not stifled by technical limitations.

I feel this game has everything that made XCOM great and brought more to the table, that the original devs would have agreed with being a good addition.

Yes its early, and that final balance and tweaking can make a game average or it can make it legendary.

But so far I have confidence in these devs from what they have produced so far...and that is something I cannot say about 95% of the development teams out there.

[Mytheos]

Most of current build's stuff are actually placeholders, ever game difficulty affect nothing but allien HP with +50% bonus on insane.

as for software lifecycle - total BS.

release == ALL features done and work just as planed, no placeholders left, software never crash under normal conditions, anything else is beta or alpha.

i developer myself, current game's stage is alpha, as long as game can crash at random it cannot be called beta.

I can show you a list of hundreds of games that can crash that are post release, and just as many that can crash that are listed as beta.

And I'm not talking about little indie games, I am talking about the AAA Blockbuster titles that receive Game of the Year awards...you have to admit if they have bugs and crash post release you are talking more about your personal beliefs and definition vs what the industry sticks in a box and ships to Wal-Mart to be sold as a "Released" title.

[DNK]

I have to disagree. Beta has all features, text, balance. It is a bug hunter and fine-tuning. The current state of the game has been stated as beta but it is obvious it is not a beta, yet.

Definitions are vague. They seem to be changing a good bit lately in the industry. What's the point of this semantics argument anyway? Point is that the game is not a final release and it's still very much a WIP that is being given the pre-release "community testers" treatment.

You must be kidding me. Release means the game is bug-free and balanced. I wonder where you have taken these specifications from. Noone has ever told me that a released game is 90% ready.

I've never played a released/gold/final game that didn't have bugs/crashes occasionally. No company is going to take a modern game, with all it's complexity, and get rid of EVERY SINGLE BUG before final release. I think that 90% is a bit low, but 95% is, yeah, reality. I'm not aware of any game released at 100%, just games with terrible post-release support where the final release is basically the FINAL release, regardless of how bugged it is.

[ThunderGr]

Definitions are vague. They seem to be changing a good bit lately in the industry. What's the point of this semantics argument anyway? Point is that the game is not a final release and it's still very much a WIP that is being given the pre-release "community testers" treatment.

I've never played a released/gold/final game that didn't have bugs/crashes occasionally. No company is going to take a modern game, with all it's complexity, and get rid of EVERY SINGLE BUG before final release. I think that 90% is a bit low, but 95% is, yeah, reality. I'm not aware of any game released at 100%, just games with terrible post-release support where the final release is basically the FINAL release, regardless of how bugged it is.

Just because they are doing it more wrong at our expense as time goes by does not mean I have to accept it. When was the last time you bought a TV at a 95% ready stage and you were fine with it? A computer? A book? Watched a movie at 95% ready? Games are entertainment and we pay for that. I am well aware of the fact that we are being cheated and abused by the software "industry". If you are fine with that, I am not.

[Mytheos]

Just because they are doing it more wrong at our expense as time goes by does not mean I have to accept it. When was the last time you bought a TV at a 95% ready stage and you were fine with it? A computer? A book? Watched a movie at 95% ready? Games are entertainment and we pay for that. I am well aware of the fact that we are being cheated and abused by the software "industry". If you are fine with that, I am not.

Nobody is "fine" with it, we all hate it....same as taxes and death. But choosing not to accept reality doesnt change the fact that its just the way it is..

The vast majority of games "Released" are not 100% perfected, bug free and balanced they are just the best effort they could do based on time, money and give a damn.

And if 97% of released games still have bugs, balance issues and so forth...then you cant say the expectation is that a "Released" game is a game that is perfect and final.

Yeah I would like that to be a reasonable exception for us as players to have...but in reality thats like expecting life to be fair...it just isnt.

[Mytheos]

DNK - "What's the point of this semantics argument anyway?"

I have no idea, it started with us telling a new player to the game, the game isnt "Released" and Final, and that it is clearly stated and sold as being an early access beta...which by logical assumption and experience in how the industry does and names things, and how those definitions have changed over time...

You should be aware that things are unfinished, unpolished and you shouldnt expect the current build to be a a 90% representation of what the game is going to be like when finished.

And that somehow turned into an argument over the technical definition of Beta/Alpha which is pointless as they are/have become vague and loosely defined...

(And I was just giving a GENERAL example about the GENERAL expectations of different development phases of a game)

[MisterLock]

It is true that opinion differs from comment to comment...In my opinion the game is excellent where is standing.There is alot of features in the game for the so called ''Early Beta'' title (which again I can say...It's more or less an advanced alpha).

I found that I can enjoy the game alot.Hell once I even went on a serious campaing in the current state and modified all of the time prices and costs of thing(because in V18...thing are not really balanced).I really found out that out of my 5 full playthroughs on the Stable steam build random maps have been the least of my worries,as it's probably the same for the devs...I personally think that they already got enough map diversity as it is for this stage of development...I'd rather see them working on squshing bugs,implementing new features,balancing game mechanics and stuff rather then see them develop maps .

And as a consolation...there is always the map subforum.Plenty of maps there...not including the official comunity map pack.

[Mytheos]

It is true that opinion differs from comment to comment...In my opinion the game is excellent where is standing.There is alot of features in the game for the so called ''Early Beta'' title (which again I can say...It's more or less an advanced alpha).

I found that I can enjoy the game alot.Hell once I even went on a serious campaing in the current state and modified all of the time prices and costs of thing(because in V18...thing are not really balanced).I really found out that out of my 5 full playthroughs on the Stable steam build random maps have been the least of my worries,as it's probably the same for the devs...I personally think that they already got enough map diversity as it is for this stage of development...I'd rather see them working on squshing bugs,implementing new features,balancing game mechanics and stuff rather then see them develop maps .

And as a consolation...there is always the map subforum.Plenty of maps there...not including the official comunity map pack.

I fully agree.

[DNK]

Just because they are doing it more wrong at our expense as time goes by does not mean I have to accept it. When was the last time you bought a TV at a 95% ready stage and you were fine with it? A computer? A book? Watched a movie at 95% ready? Games are entertainment and we pay for that. I am well aware of the fact that we are being cheated and abused by the software "industry". If you are fine with that, I am not.

First, what Mytheos said 100%.

Second, and with more snark, how can they bugtest a game on every combination of hardware before a release exactly? Game companies are what we call "businesses", and as such have to deal with things called "finances". "Money" does not grow on digital trees, and so they cannot afford to pay 20,000 people to test the games for glitches and bugs on 20,000 different hardware configurations. They also cannot afford to keep a game in development for an extra like 25% of its current cycle just to fix every last little minor issue. There is this thing called "diminishing returns", and given that the marketplace has decided that "95% (or so) is 'good enough'", they usually will find that a good enough place to stop, if their finances don't dictate it as such a point first anyway. Once they release and get flush with cash, they can afford to pay for continued improvements and fixes. So, not only can they not find many issues until after release, but many times they couldn't afford to pay to fix them before release anyway.

[WalrusJones]

Just because they are doing it more wrong at our expense as time goes by does not mean I have to accept it. When was the last time you bought a TV at a 95% ready stage and you were fine with it? A computer? A book? Watched a movie at 95% ready? Games are entertainment and we pay for that. I am well aware of the fact that we are being cheated and abused by the software "industry". If you are fine with that, I am not.

You wouldn't deserve be angry if it was advertized as that, Xenonauts is.

And a lot of people generally like to buy their computers at a 95% ready state: Finished parts that need to be assembled.

Arguably, its the only way to get the best personal computer possible.

Coding is tough.

I ask you to try to make a mod, with a 23'rd of the content that the full game has.

Do art assets, mix audio bits, and write long XML strings.

Get rid of every crash, bug, and otherwise broken feature....

Its a lot of work, and if I can write code that crashes in lua, java, and xml within a days work...

These guys have their work cut out for them with a years worth of bugs and nasty things.

Writing my mod, I haven't really gotten to actually play the game much at all (There is a dozen hours of testing, and a little fun time I got,) then we have the devs, who spend all of their on hours expanding the game, who, outside of the QA guys, probably get to play the game less then I do.

However, part of making a good game is playing it, and with the raw amount of work that everyone else on the team needs to do, that means they need us to keep playing unfinished games, so they can keep producing better modern games.

More importantly, how can they scammed you, having pre-ordered the game at a lower price with beta-testing privileges.

1. You saved money on the finished product.

2. You have the power to mold the final product.

3. You basically have a very long demo.

4. What was advertized is exactly what you got: A full game pre-order, with beta access.

-4.a. If lack of content is your complaint, you have full capability of adding all the content you want.

[ThunderGr]

how can they bugtest a game on every combination of hardware before a release exactly?

You cannot be serious, right? With DirectX and OpenGL it is no longer necessary to do that. Back in the 90's things were really a mess. The game had to be made compatible and be tested with all the supported graphics cards and sound cards drivers because there was no multimedia layer API to use that would handle the communication with the driver. They only thing they have to do now, is to test for minimum requirements and do a decent debugging. Still, games in the 90's came out with less bugs and higher game qualities than modern games.

Game companies are what we call "businesses", and as such have to deal with things called "finances". "Money" does not grow on digital trees, and so they cannot afford to pay 20,000 people to test the games for glitches and bugs on 20,000 different hardware configurations. They also cannot afford to keep a game in development for an extra like 25% of its current cycle just to fix every last little minor issue. There is this thing called "diminishing returns", and given that the marketplace has decided that "95% (or so) is 'good enough'", they usually will find that a good enough place to stop, if their finances don't dictate it as such a point first anyway. Once they release and get flush with cash, they can afford to pay for continued improvements and fixes. So, not only can they not find many issues until after release, but many times they couldn't afford to pay to fix them before release anyway.

Very interesting. Damn, I wish you say that the next time you pay for dinner and they serve you 95% finished dinner because "they are a business and there is thing called 'diminishing returns'"...Attitudes like that keep the gaming industry in such a pitiful state. Everything else passes through QC (quality check) procedures at various stages of production. Games don't because they have found a way to make money while producing crap and being sure that they won't be sued for that under the disclaimer of warranty they state.

You wouldn't deserve be angry if it was advertized as that, Xenonauts is.

This game is still in alpha. I only hope they will have finished it before release but, to tell the truth, I am well aware that my hopes cannot hold water. From what I have seen so far, the engine used is buggy and they are tied to it. This can only mean that the end product will have to suffer unpatchable bugs no matter what. It also means that the engine poses limitations to the developers that will lead to producing a product less good that they had in mind to begin with...

And a lot of people generally like to buy their computers at a 95% ready state: Finished parts that need to be assembled.

Arguably, its the only way to get the best personal computer possible.

Some people, like myself, like to assemble our computers. I was referring to the vast majority that have no idea how to do so and they expect a finished product. Ordering parts for a closet with the intend of assembling it yourself is different than buying a finished closet.

Coding is tough.

I ask you to try to make a mod, with a 23'rd of the content that the full game has.

Do art assets, mix audio bits, and write long XML strings.

Get rid of every crash, bug, and otherwise broken feature....

Its a lot of work, and if I can write code that crashes in lua, java, and xml within a days work...

These guys have their work cut out for them with a years worth of bugs and nasty things.

Writing my mod, I haven't really gotten to actually play the game much at all (There is a dozen hours of testing, and a little fun time I got,) then we have the devs, who spend all of their on hours expanding the game, who, outside of the QA guys, probably get to play the game less then I do.

I am a programmer, so I know that coding is tough and this is why people get paid to do it right. If it was easy, everyone would do it and there would be no need to pay specialists.

Believe it or not, modding is tougher than coding, because you do not have the source code to correct or adjust the game to suit your purposes. I can assure you that the programmer requires a fragment of the time a modder does to accomplish the same result. In addition, unlike the modder, that has to take care of graphic art, sounds, data details etc, these tasks are, usually, divided among a team in the company, so, the programmer does not bother with any other issues but coding.

I have done quite a few modding for several games and my mods are still up if you check the forums.

However, part of making a good game is playing it, and with the raw amount of work that everyone else on the team needs to do, that means they need us to keep playing unfinished games, so they can keep producing better modern games.

I have no problem with that. This is why I paid for Xenonauts, even though it is unfinished. My intention was to support the company in their attempt to produce a great final game and help with the debugging and any other issue I could.

More importantly, how can they scammed you, having pre-ordered the game at a lower price with beta-testing privileges.

1. You saved money on the finished product.

2. You have the power to mold the final product.

3. You basically have a very long demo.

4. What was advertized is exactly what you got: A full game pre-order, with beta access.

-4.a. If lack of content is your complaint, you have full capability of adding all the content you want.

I see that you have not, probably, followed the thread from the beginning. I was not complaining about Xenonauts, I was just commenting on a poster's definitions of the stages of development. In my knowledge, he had all stages wrong but I was particularly riled by the final product expectations to be "90-95% ready" and needing "balancing and debugging".

Edited July 6, 2013 by ThunderGr

[DNK]

You cannot be serious, right? With DirectX and OpenGL it is no longer necessary to do that. Back in the 90's things were really a mess. The game had to be made compatible and be tested with all the supported graphics cards and sound cards drivers because there was no multimedia layer API to use that would handle the communication with the driver. They only thing they have to do now, is to test for minimum requirements and do a decent debugging. Still, games in the 90's came out with less bugs and higher game qualities than modern games.

Yet people still have all sorts of issues with specific hardware configurations in games. Like 85% of players have no issues, then 15% have horrible performance for no apparent reason. It's just their specific setup doesn't play well with however the game or drivers for the game have been coded.

You're creating something that's going to be run across half a dozen plus CPU architectures, a similar number of GPU architectures, chipsets, storage setups, and operating systems. You think APIs are a magic bullet for that mess? This is an issue with using PCs for gaming. It's not something that can realistically be avoided.

Yeah, there are some real lemons that get released and shouldn't be, even from major studios, but claiming all games should be 100% done on release is excessive.

Damn, I wish you say that the next time you pay for dinner and they serve you 95% finished dinner because "they are a business and there is thing called 'diminishing returns'"

I normally get served dinners that could be considered far less than 95% of what I would like in terms of quality. I also don't pay $100 a plate for them. I prefer this scenario as I cannot afford to pay $50-100 for perfect meals every time. But, damn, I guess you go out for 4.5-5 star every single time. Probably complain anyway and stand up on your table and claim they're indicative of a restaurant industry in a dismal state of poor standards...

[ThunderGr]

Yet people still have all sorts of issues with specific hardware configurations in games. Like 85% of players have no issues, then 15% have horrible performance for no apparent reason. It's just their specific setup doesn't play well with however the game or drivers for the game have been coded.

Noone programs drivers in game programming any more. People have issues because the underlined API used by the game and the drivers released by the manufacturers are incompatible or faulty. This is why the first thing you have to do, if you encounter problems with any game, is to update your drivers. The game has only to specify DirectX or OpenGL version. The reason why some games work well with outdated drivers while others do not is that some games use a limited set of the multimedia layer API, while others use the full range, so, any incompatibilities between the multimedia layer and the device driver surface.

You're creating something that's going to be run across half a dozen plus CPU architectures, a similar number of GPU architectures, chipsets, storage setups, and operating systems. You think APIs are a magic bullet for that mess? This is an issue with using PCs for gaming. It's not something that can realistically be avoided.

As I said, the game developers could not care less about that. They program for the multimedia layer(usually DirectX or OpenGL) and that layer handles the rest.

Yeah, there are some real lemons that get released and shouldn't be, even from major studios, but claiming all games should be 100% done on release is excessive.

It is to be expected that some bugs will slip out but, from the point of view of development, the game should be considered 100% ready on release. Releasing games with known bugs and fully knowing they are unfinished is what I frown upon. I am not as unreasonable as I may sound. It is, usually, the fault of distributors, not developers, that this happens all the time, still, for the gamer, it is a cause for frustration no matter who is responsible.

I normally get served dinners that could be considered far less than 95% of what I would like in terms of quality. I also don't pay $100 a plate for them. I prefer this scenario as I cannot afford to pay $50-100 for perfect meals every time. But, damn, I guess you go out for 4.5-5 star every single time. Probably complain anyway and stand up on your table and claim they're indicative of a restaurant industry in a dismal state of poor standards...

Hahahaha..That was cute! I was talking about the actual food, you know. I wouldn't like to be given a 95% cooked burger or spaghetti. I think this hardly qualifies as 4.5 - 5 stars service .

[Mytheos]

@ThunderGr

Can I come and live where you live?

I havent ever been to but maybe 1-3 places to eat that the food quality was virtually the same each time, they usually vary by a margin of 10% at the best of them, and the food can go from great to mostly unpleasant to choke down at others.

But in any case...

I think the OP got their answer, and I should think by now you have yours...the industry has varying and poor standards....and considering everyone that posted in this threat but you seem to be living in the same reality of how the industry works and performs...

You should just be happy with your contrasting experience, and take some degree of pity on the rest of us that have long since accepted and expected to find bugs, balance issues, poor mechanics, and several patches on nearly every game we buy after release.

[ThunderGr]

@ThunderGr

Can I come and live where you live?

I havent ever been to but maybe 1-3 places to eat that the food quality was virtually the same each time, they usually vary by a margin of 10% at the best of them, and the food can go from great to mostly unpleasant to choke down at others.

Still, I see my point fails to get through. I doubt you have ever accepted uncooked food without protest and demand to take it back and cook it properly. There are quality levels. The food being cooked at an acceptable level is an uncompromisable demand, unless the food is given for free, at which case you have no problem to cook it yourself.

But in any case...

I think the OP got their answer, and I should think by now you have yours...the industry has varying and poor standards....and considering everyone that posted in this threat but you seem to be living in the same reality of how the industry works and performs...

You should just be happy with your contrasting experience, and take some degree of pity on the rest of us that have long since accepted and expected to find bugs, balance issues, poor mechanics, and several patches on nearly every game we buy after release.

Being forced to live by the poor standards is one thing, accepting it as the way it should be is another. The difference is that, while I have to live with it I do not like it and want it to change. I put my best efforts in pointing out that what is happening is wrong and that it should change and I try my best to support the companies that, despite the poor industry standards, try to produce quality products on release.

My strong reaction to the post that defined the stages of the game is not because I have a different experience than anyone else but in accordance to my efforts to point out that we, the gamers, have to expect better games if the industry is ever going to improve the quality instead of keeping to produce less and less complete games "on release". As such, I was not looking for an answer but making a point. The fact that everyone tries to defend the crappy quality we get on release, is an evidence that people have accepted it as normal, and have stopped trying(if they ever tried, really) to change that.

[thothkins]

Disappointed that no one on this thread returned to with a v1.1 patch of a previous post, and left it with spelling errors.

[Mytheos]

@ThunderGr

I do understand where you are coming from, I really do. And I DO feel the same.

But you have to understand it IS the consumer that decides these things ultimately...we're old and we've long since been passed by a newer generation of ADHD gamers that just want shiny graphics and a quick, easy to pick up title.

Making games with expected play times to finish of 5-10 hours is blasphemy from "when" I come from, I dont give a damn about achievements, yeah thanks for giving me a gold star because I drank a potion or killed 100 skeletons, or clubbed a bear to death while naked singing the start spangled banner.

If you do give a damn about this, I feel sorry you never experienced the times when BEATING a game wasnt a given and the reward found was an experience that MADE you find out how good you really were, one that challenged you to go beyond your own limits.

I enjoyed being awesome because I WAS awesome, not because the game was designed around making me awesome because I had an IQ over 80 and had not lost any limbs in an industrial accident.

But I assure you a few dusty old souls will not change an industry driven by kids that just want their games to give them a quick buzz and be forgotten a few days later.

But at least we have "Remember that one game 15 years ago, man that was such a good time" they will have robbed themselves of this and no amount of convincing from us will change their minds....as in the time it takes to explain it to them...well they would have long since tuned us out and started texting their friends and posting self-shots of themselves on facebook and twittered that they were getting ready to go eat lunch, and what they were having.

[alienman]

Damn, that is a lot of bitterness Sure, the industry has changed, but what you are describing is some kind of dystopian gaming future and not the reality. You just have to know where to look, and avoid those triple A games. Lots of indie games still feel old school, and even if it (god forbid hehe) has achievements it's just a gimmick.

[Mytheos]

Damn, that is a lot of bitterness Sure, the industry has changed, but what you are describing is some kind of dystopian gaming future and not the reality. You just have to know where to look, and avoid those triple A games. Lots of indie games still feel old school, and even if it (god forbid hehe) has achievements it's just a gimmick.

Yeah I know, indie gaming is the last bastion of hope.

But look at what you said...stay away from those AAA Blockbusters. The games with the largest budgets with the best teams and the largest fanbases...

Having to avoid major titles/the majority of titles kind of sums up my point.

[Mytheos]

@Alienman

This is why we get enraged when companies dumb down the games we want to play to the point we dont want to play them.

This is why ThunderGr flies off the handle when he sees something get watered down.

We DONT have much left, and we are fighting fiercely to protect what little we do from being lost along with the rest.

So yeah I "was" insanely bitter...but that has moved on to acceptance now.