Geoscape Balance Discussion v19 Experimental Build 2

[Dranak]

Hey Aaron, do you have a goal in mind for what percentage of our resources should be dedicated to air combat? Or a goal for approximately how many aircraft we should need to secure a region?

[Xenomorph]

Aaron, i'd like to share this. It is not cool.

2013-06-26_22.38.07.sav

Geoscape.

My transport just finished a terror mission, and is returning to base. It's not far.

Out of nowhere, 3 interceptors pop in from a LONG distance away, head straight to the transport and kill it.

Maybe it's intentional, but it's not cool.

So i reload a save from the mission, finish it again, and guess what happens?

Exactly the same. The 3 same interceptors appear, and i lose the transport.

Really not cool

I'd accept it perfectly in a high difficulty setting, but NOT on normal. Way too much "finger of god".

[Andeerz]

I honestly believe you are overcomplicating the air combat mini game and giving it too much dificulty. I like that you want to include new stuff beyond xcom but it feels to me an excessively complex feature like air combat ends up more of an added obstacle than a fun added feature.

My personal feeling so far, probably Just me as everyone seems to praise it though. :-)

You ain't the only one that doesn't like it. Personally, I feel like the minigame is pretty much impossible as it is with its current level of complexity (or lack thereof) to make into something that requires meaningful mental input to win, and is therefore quite meaningless to have, in my opinion.

I don't think it's overly complex or even difficult. If you know how to play it well, you will pretty much always know whether or not you will win or lose and can decide whether or not and how to intercept accordingly, so to me the minigame is pointless.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Andeerz

[Aaron]

Repair times for the later aircraft are definitely too long right now -this is because aircraft currently repair a set number of HP per minute, so fighters with more HP just take longer to repair. This will be fixed by making repairs fix a percentage of the max aircraft HP per minute instead.

Auto-resolve for the air combat is something we are working on at the moment because, as people have noted, the air combat gets repetitive quickly - we could fix this by adding more depth to it, but we don't want to do that as it would take the focus away from the more important parts of the game.

@Xenomorph, The perpetual chase thing is a bug, once you escape from an attacking UFO once they should ignore you - will look into this. I am also not a fan of the interception mechanic, and I actually had it disabled for everything except air superiority UFOs (ground attack UFOs also used to be able to do it if they spotted an easy target); it's worth noting you can escort your dropship with fighters if you send a fighter on the mission with it, but that's a pretty lame response when the player has no idea that they would even need to - I will investigate alternatives that are not so punishing.

@Dranak, I do have some idea how many aircraft I thought players would have at each stage during the game, but I don't want to tip my hand there for fear of biasing the discussion - in general, how many of the various types are you (and everyone!) finding yourself building?

[Andeerz]

it's worth noting you can escort your dropship with fighters if you send a fighter on the mission with it, but that's a pretty lame response when the player has no idea that they would even need to - I will investigate alternatives that are not so punishing.

Hmmm... do players really have no idea they would need to? I feel like the risk of sending an unescorted dropship is pretty darned obvious, at least to me. And I didn't know that non-fighter UFOs were made not to intercept anymore as I always send my vulnerable stuff with escorts or intercept threats beforehand and figured they didn't intercept me because of this. I do not feel that interception per se is too punishing and I think it really should be something that remains as a crucial part of the geoscape game. Stuff like repair times, ship costs, intercept-chaining bugs and stuff like that I think are what are unreasonably punishing. I feel it would really break the game-feel and dumb down the geoscape game to neuter alien air capabilities by making interceptions not happen.

Maybe easier difficulties could have no interceptions, but, seriously, I do not think that interception is what is making things unbalanced.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Andeerz

[ThunderGr]

Just as I thought. The constant whining about the air combat getting "too difficult" and "overcomplicated" leads to lessening the depth of it and removal of nice features. Well done, people. Keep it up.

[Xenomorph]

@Xenomorph, The perpetual chase thing is a bug, once you escape from an attacking UFO once they should ignore you

Must have missed this on the bug threads, tks for the heads up.

------------------------------------------------

Having to escort transports with fighters is silly, imo. We are never technologically superior to the aliens, we don't have any aircraft that alone magically kills 3 UFO and survives.

If we have a transport being escorted at any point in the game, and it's attacked by 3 UFO, e the 2 escorts will always be destroyed (don't matter if we kill 1 or 2 of the UFO, right? There's always more) and maybe will the transport. It sounds cool in paper, but it's silly, losing aircraft because of the finger of god, not because we chose to pick a fight.

If the transport is attacked by only 1 UFO, that will be an unnecessary annoyance, we get nothing from it.

Surely some love the idea, and will get a buzz from being bombed back to stone age. So why not to make it as an option instead? That would be a good solution. You could also do the same for air combat, making Standard and Advanced combat different options, and you could follow your vision of a good air brawl minigame, keeping it simple on the other end

.

[Xenomorph]

Just as I thought. The constant whining about the air combat getting "too difficult" and "overcomplicated" leads to lessening the depth of it and removal of nice features. Well done, people. Keep it up.

I don't think it's fair making it very tough to please only some. There should be flavor for everyone.

This is not about my preferences or your preferences, ultimately it's the devs that have to make the decisions on how to make it so they have a successful game. There's where our input counts. Lots of companies don't care about player input and come out with buckets of crap, some listen too much but fail to look at the simple side of things : easy mode and hard mode, make it as an option.

I'm not talking about game difficulty settings when you start a new game, it's about how much additional fluff you want when you play it. You may like to play superhumanincrediblyimpossible iron man with random earthquakes destroying your bases, mechanical failures crashing your transports, unknown virus killing your soldiers and NEVER EVER win a game, but that's your choice, not everyone else's. But if reasonable, yes, let the options be there.

That's how life goes, a lot of crap for one breakthrough, but we'll get there

[Dranak]

It's also not possible to escort a drop ship on any sort of longer range mission (ie terror mission). It would seem overly punishing to clear your air space only to lose a drop ship to a interceptor sweep well outside of your radar range. That would feel very random and uncontrollable to me as a player.

As for my number of AC, I'm sitting at the beginning of Jan on two bases. Each has 3 Foxtrots. One has a Corsair that I rarely use, and the other has two Condors that I haven't gotten rid of yet. Total AC purchased/built so far is 6 Foxtrots, 1 Corsair, 6 Condors (counting the two initial ones). My only AC losses so far are four Condors. When I start my next game (probably after the next update) I plan on keeping a log of my purchases/losses and posting it/breaking it down by expenditures on ground combat, air combat, and infrastructure.

[ThunderGr]

I don't think it's fair making it very tough to please only some. There should be flavor for everyone.

This is not about my preferences or your preferences, ultimately it's the devs that have to make the decisions on how to make it so they have a successful game. There's where our input counts. Lots of companies don't care about player input and come out with buckets of crap, some listen too much but fail to look at the simple side of things : easy mode and hard mode, make it as an option.

I'm not talking about game difficulty settings when you start a new game, it's about how much additional fluff you want when you play it. You may like to play superhumanincrediblyimpossible iron man with random earthquakes destroying your bases, mechanical failures crashing your transports, unknown virus killing your soldiers and NEVER EVER win a game, but that's your choice, not everyone else's. But if reasonable, yes, let the options be there.

That's how life goes, a lot of crap for one breakthrough, but we'll get there

Well, it is good that there were no forums and whiners at the time X-COM was developed. If there were, the game wouldn't have been the masterpiece it is. There will always be those that will complain about difficulty because they are too lazy to adjust their tactics. If you can't play Normal, play Easy. If you cannot win in Veteran, play Normal. This is why there are difficulty levels.

Your taking my arguments to the extreme so that you can ridicule them is just poor conversion tactic, in case you did not know. Talking about superhumanly impossible in comparison with the state of the air combat currently in the game is completely unrelated.

As a final note, unfortunately, the developers listen to the preferences of the loud, lazy, whiners because they are the majority. So, please spare me the "is not about your preferences" lecture.

One thing I give credit to fireaxis for is that they did not fall for the whiners about the "how insanely difficult" is the Classic difficulty level in comparison to the Normal level of the new X-COM. Some people have to understand that any level above easy is supposed to be challenging, even if easy is named "normal". The first difficulty level in every game is the easiest. Anything above that is challenging(unless you play civilization ).

Edited June 27, 2013 by ThunderGr

[Mytheos]

I think the air combat is great, just needs rebalanced for difficulty.

It just takes a bit of time to get used to, and the game expects you to use what you have, yes there is more focus on Air Combat than in XCOM, but honestly XCOM air combat was trivial.

Right now you are expected to flip red 1 missile, and then let the other autofire, and after the UFO dodges, immediately green and fire the other, but keep in mind you have to be zoomed in and roll to avoid incoming fire.

Foxtrots are faster, but they need a little lock time, so dont forget to throttle back your speed, this allows you more time to lock on.

Condor and Foxtrots can be used as a duo to take out groups of fighters, but realize again foxtrots are faster, and UFOs shoot what is close. So you have to lower your foxtrot speed so that it is behind your Condor, again have it fire 1 missile let the UFO dodge, then fire another, use it's superior range and get your 1 kill with it, and retreat and dont forget to max your throttle. Then the Condor goes against the other two, again fire 1 missile, and after the UFO dodges fire the other (You have to dodge the UFOs first salvo as well) and you are left with 1 fighter that you can easily kill with your guns.

Again this is all very tight, one mistake like not adjusting your speed, turning off auto fire on 1 of your missiles, or dodging correctly can result in loss of craft.

But isnt that what XCOM is about? Not making mistakes? (Or at least as few as possible) Ground combat is no different and a good player can make it through 10 missions with no losses, and get through half or better not even taking a scratch, while a new player will experience 1-3 losses a mission.

But again changing things based on difficulty here is key. Like for normal disabling your weapon systems from being damaged, or making it super rare, changing damage taken and done, craft HPs and so forth.

But for what it is Air Combat is very solid IF you know what you are doing, if not its game ending frustration. But thats one of the core reasons behind difficulty, you should beat easy never adjusting your speed, UFOs dont dodge, and its essentially Ship + weapons loadout vs UFO type = Auto Win or Auto Loose.

But as the difficulty ramps up you are required to take full advantage of speed, dodge, counterfire tactics and so forth.

The idea is IF you do everything right you should win 95% of the time ( Lets face it planes losses = reload ) but doing everything right requires a lot of knowledge of the weapons systems, craft types and so forth.

[Mytheos]

On another note, the Scout/medium ship situation where you can get the to "lock in" on one ship and then maneuver another behind them and light them up tactic....

Just a passing idea...different ships have different crew right? (Species)

So why not change the AI behavior based on what is inside the UFO? Lizardmen are kinda dumb and aggressive so they would do the whole pick a target and follow it (allowing you to get in behind and nail them)

Where as the Greys ( I cant remember the species names and wont attempt to badly spell them) would choose a target but if you tried to sneak up on them they would switch targets for a bit , so you would have to employ a monkey in the middle tactic switching your planes from flee to fight.

AI behaviors like this should be on higher difficulties only, of course.

[Xenomorph]

We can't really compare Ground combat with Air combat. On ground combat, whatever you do is your choice. On air combat, you have a very limited number of options and actions you can take. So, after you figure out how to do things, you just have to execute them flawlessly. Over and over, and after a few times doing it, you just hit the auto-resolve because you rather go do ground combat.

In the meanwhile, someone tried to figure out how to make it to fit everyone's preferences, casuals and hardcore. Many many hours spent going through options and ideas, trials end errors, numbers slightly adjusted up and down so everything is so perfect.

And in the end, those hardcore end up hitting the auto resolve button as well, because they realize air combat is just too freakin risky in iron man mode, and one blink means back to stone age, after many many hours of playing. And all those hours spent by someone trying to make it so perfect, go to waste. Indeed, it was a challenge.

@thundergr

The idea is NOT to push the game to your side, the idea is to HELP by providing useful ideas so it fits on everyone's side.

If you make a game too complicated, casuals (probably the highest number of players) won't play it. If you make it NOT so complicated, casuals will play it, and hardcores, as long as it's a good game with plenty other stuff to offer, will play it as well. It's a fact.

By today's standards, EU1994 is a piece of cake. I beat that superhuman while sleeping. What about TFTD? I NEVER see anyone mentioning it. But why? It might be EU1994 with a new skin, but it's all there, just underwater, not better, not worse. Just way, way harder, and fact is, no one likes it, besides me and a couple other dudes somewhere, everyone else says it's just too fu**** hard.

You know, i played it. Many times. I still do, occasionally. But only when i feel really brave. Maybe that's why i haven't played it not even nearly as many times as i did EU1994, Apocalypse, and the alternative JA2, my 3 favorites ever.

[ThunderGr]

@thundergr

The idea is NOT to push the game to your side, the idea is to HELP by providing useful ideas so it fits on everyone's side.

If you make a game too complicated, casuals (probably the highest number of players) won't play it. If you make it NOT so complicated, casuals will play it, and hardcores, as long as it's a good game with plenty other stuff to offer, will play it as well. It's a fact.

By today's standards, EU1994 is a piece of cake. I beat that superhuman while sleeping. What about TFTD? I NEVER see anyone mentioning it. But why? It might be EU1994 with a new skin, but it's all there, just underwater, not better, not worse. Just way, way harder, and fact is, no one likes it, besides me and a couple other dudes somewhere, everyone else says it's just too fu**** hard.

You know, i played it. Many times. I still do, occasionally. But only when i feel really brave. Maybe that's why i haven't played it not even nearly as many times as i did EU1994, Apocalypse, and the alternative JA2, my 3 favorites ever.

I have played TFTD more than any of the other X-COM games and I liked it more than the rest. I am not in favor of making a game just for hardcore players. I am only saying that the people complaining about "V19 air combat being too hard" just do so after trying to apply V18 tactics and failed. Then they start moaning without even trying to adjust. This is my only complain. I do not say the air combat is balanced or finished and this is the way it should be, I say I like the direction it has taken in V19 Exp build 2 and I would like to see it keep going that way. Having to apply different tactics according to current situation is a good thing. Playing the same boring tactic again and again, just to win the air fight is not. And we have to accept that we will have casualties in the air and that we should suck it up and recover from that. It should not be impossible to do so. And this is where the weight of the development in respect to the air combat should go, IMHO. Not into making it easier or simpler. And, I do not know why you all keep ignoring me when I say, this is what difficulty levels are for. If you are a completely casual player, play it on Easy. If you like a challenge, play it on Normal. If you need something to really test your abilities and tactical skills in the game, go above normal. But Normal has to be challenging and complex. This is my opinion.

The decision is what the developers have to do and they have lots of things to consider. I keep posting my opinion because most of the people with the same opinion, either are not present in the forums, for various reasons, or they do not feel like posting an opinion, waiting for the developers' decisions. I think that by not voicing an opinion gives false input to the developers.

[thothkins]

I found parts of TFTD...well dull. I enjoyed it, but compared to EU1994, bits of it... ship missions just were very long. I recall being disappointed in the final mission too. I'd have been palying at normal or veteran back then, but I was just expecting more. Which isn't the game's fault. EU1994 had an immobile brain. I was hoping that the big bad 'un here actually did something.

[Kurruk]

Having to apply different tactics according to current situation is a good thing.

You are right on that part.

If you are a completely casual player, play it on Easy. If you like a challenge, play it on Normal. If you need something to really test your abilities and tactical skills in the game, go above normal. But Normal has to be challenging and complex.

Here on the other hand you are missing the point. Your challenging and average players challenging levels are different. The game itself even describes levels as normal being challenging for average Joe (will be somewhat forgiving), while veteran is for challenging gameplay to ppl that already played "this sort of" (x-com) game. That was the main reason why I for my first game ever went straight to veteran for example.

[Xenomorph]

I am only saying that the people complaining about "V19 air combat being too hard" just do so after trying to apply V18 tactics and failed. Then they start moaning without even trying to adjust.

I've also mentioned previously on this thread that i also like how air combat has evolved, and how much better it is compared to V18.

They really are different, aren't they? Looks like some people like V18, and some others like the way it is right now. I like both, to be honest. And that's why i mentioned it a few posts ago, one good solution could be to have both, independently of difficulty settings.

The only difference would be a check box in the options menu

Any good and loyal player, after getting some practice with one or 2 playthroughs and getting the basics and mediums wrapped up, would move into advanced air combat, and it can be just what V19/2 is moving towards, VS V18 basic combat.

[Xenomorph]

...I enjoyed it, but compared to EU1994, bits of it... ship missions just were very long...

They were indeed, and that is actually one of the things that keeps drawing me into it - A constant state of mini heart attacks

[thothkins]

I'd not mind so much if the troops were actually doing something. I just remember trying to find the last alien in gigantic ship maps.

[Xenomorph]

I'd not mind so much if the troops were actually doing something. I just remember trying to find the last alien in gigantic ship maps.

And even then, we would think the poor thing had been in a terrible panic and dropped his weapon a long time ago, BAM. A couple soldiers shot in the face.

[thothkins]

I lost some troops out of sheer boredom. They were desperate to finish the mission. They hadn't eaten or slept in days on that ship. They were delirious by the end. Which is just when the alien shot them.

[RuskiVolkov]

Maybe I'm just not very good at the air minigame, but heres what happened to me.

When a corvette appeared for the first time in my game (yesterday morning), I saved my game and sent 2 condors and 1 foxtrot to deal with it. I lost the foxtrot (because I was stupid) and one of the condors. I reloaded and tried again, this time paying attention to what I was doing. All of my planes got wiped. I reloaded and tried about 5 more times.

Einstein's definition of insanity was "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results," so I decided to send 2 foxtrots, followed by a full squadron of condors. After the two foxtrots released their payloads (four of which were alenium missiles) I had them break from the fight. The condors then intercepted the craft, I had the corvette chase one while the other two attacked. After losing two condors the thing finally died.

It took seven tries, and on the one successful try I lost two aircraft (and the foxtrots barely got away). Now I'm fine with this outcome, but it took so long to get to it, and way too many resources. Whenever i lose a foxtrot, i feel like i'm forced to reload. I'm barely getting paid as it is and 250k for a foxtrot makes it a huge HUGE investment.

I think air combat should be hard, I think air combat should be challenging, I think i should definitely be losing aircraft left and right until I can get proper defenses and technologies researched and set up. But, I don't think messing up once should punish the player.

If I send a squad of foxtrots to deal with a corvette and they all die, to my understanding here is what happens:

I'm out $750k, and the invasion ticker goes up.

So not only have I lost 3 almost irreplaceable aircraft (way too expensive to build more) but now as punishment for losing my craft the aliens are going to send even better spaceships.

I don't have any personal input for how the minigame should be, I just don't want to spend all of my money building planes that are just going to get curb stomped the second they leave the hanger.

[thothkins]

I think rebalancing the economy makes the loss slightly more acceptable. In that, it's not game killing and you know you can recover. Knowing I could take up squadrons helped me too, a bit and there are other tactics. Mine is waiting for corsairs and huge missiles

[StellarRat]

Maybe I'm just not very good at the air minigame, but heres what happened to me.

When a corvette appeared for the first time in my game (yesterday morning), I saved my game and sent 2 condors and 1 foxtrot to deal with it. I lost the foxtrot (because I was stupid) and one of the condors. I reloaded and tried again, this time paying attention to what I was doing. All of my planes got wiped. I reloaded and tried about 5 more times.

Einstein's definition of insanity was "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results," so I decided to send 2 foxtrots, followed by a full squadron of condors. After the two foxtrots released their payloads (four of which were alenium missiles) I had them break from the fight. The condors then intercepted the craft, I had the corvette chase one while the other two attacked. After losing two condors the thing finally died.

It took seven tries, and on the one successful try I lost two aircraft (and the foxtrots barely got away). Now I'm fine with this outcome, but it took so long to get to it, and way too many resources. Whenever i lose a foxtrot, i feel like i'm forced to reload. I'm barely getting paid as it is and 250k for a foxtrot makes it a huge HUGE investment.

I think air combat should be hard, I think air combat should be challenging, I think i should definitely be losing aircraft left and right until I can get proper defenses and technologies researched and set up. But, I don't think messing up once should punish the player.

If I send a squad of foxtrots to deal with a corvette and they all die, to my understanding here is what happens:

I'm out $750k, and the invasion ticker goes up.

So not only have I lost 3 almost irreplaceable aircraft (way too expensive to build more) but now as punishment for losing my craft the aliens are going to send even better spaceships.

I don't have any personal input for how the minigame should be, I just don't want to spend all of my money building planes that are just going to get curb stomped the second they leave the hanger.

Are you actually managing the planes yourself or just letting the combat run and see what happens? The pause (space bar) is definitely your friend in air combat.

[Xenomorph]

Einstein's definition of insanity was "doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results,"

Yep. But it's not always what you send, it's how you use them.

NEVER let your planes do their thing and follow any UFO lead vector automatically, NEVER. Manual interception course plot is your best friend.

Unless you are absolutely sure you can kill something with 2 planes (or with one) without damage or casualties, ALWAYS send 3.

The middle one is the decoy. A solo UFO will ALWAYS target the middle plane (if you use 3 of the same, but the pattern is always the same). Depending on the positions at the beginning of combat, steer the middle plane so the UFO weapons arc will face away from the other 2 planes, so they don't have to change course and shoot sideways - if you can shoot sideways, one missile could be enough, but count on the evasive roll, comes with practice.

OR

You can kill most single UFO fighters with 3 planes easily, head on without maneuvering. Throttle down to min, hold all missiles on all planes but one (middle), that will be the roll decoy, let it fire automatically. Plot the middle plane dead on towards the UFO, and plot the other 2 perpendicular (so they have firing arc on evasive roll), but you have to do it so ALL can have a lock on the UFO when it comes into range, the arcs must overlap where the UFO will come into firing range. When the UFO rolls, fire with the plane that has arc. You can kill more then one single UFO in one sortie, clear the skies and land happy.

For larger lonely UFO (medium and above), depending on the initial positions, you may want to use afterburners and fire all 6 torpedoes as soon as possible. You do it right, you won't even have to maneuver evasively. Takes some practice. Else do as above, steer the middle somewhere else and let the other 2 fire, send more of you have, or back to base, rearm, and go back to finish the job.

For 3 vs 3, Condors and Corsairs are useless (use those to mop up) need MIG with torpedoes. Throttle down to min, plot intercept course dead on to the target, each plane its own UFO. Hold one torpedo, let the other one fore automatically. When the UFO rolls, BEFORE it leaves weapon firing arc, manually fire the second.

You will have a better chance to start combat with a UFO facing the other way (180deg) if you tail it for a second, then engage. Then you can use afterburners, go right in and shoot all 6 torpedoes, instead on using decoy and fire only 4.

Pause, pause, pause. Use and abuse pause.

Use these abundantly, and wisely

Edited June 28, 2013 by Xenomorph