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Tryphikik

Should all Thrown items cost the same TU's?

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Getting right into it, I think it is a bit silly balance wise to have every thrown item cost the same TU's. You wouldn't have a Rocket Launcher cost the same to shoot as a Pistol... so why does every thrown item cost the same tu's when what they provide is very different?

I suppose it is for realism's sake(the one excuse always used when we are intentionally making a game less balanced than it should be)? But couldn't differences still be justified with for instance, grenades and stuns are "Aggressive throws" with the soldier putting extra emphasis on accuracy so it costs more tu's because of that focus and strength. Whereas something like flares or smokes are just "Passive tosses" where they aren't aggressively trying to hit something so they sort of just wing it out there. Or at least adjust the tu's based on range thrown?

I think one of the first tweaks to making night just slightly more approachable, albeit still much more difficult than day, is having flares not cost the current metric shit ton that they cost to throw out.

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I agree that throwing flares is to high a cost but could you provide feedback and advice so that we can make thi early access game better in terms of balance and game play. I imagine eventually the devs will get around to this issue but until then other forumites will shoot off ideas.

In case you are from the steam forum and thus are a poisonous toxic influence here are some ways to be productive about this blatant balancing error.

Hello. I Think the TU cost of throwing objects is too high and does not benefit game play. Having to pent all of our soldiers small amount of TUs to throw a grenade that may not even do anything seems like a bug and/or a feature you have not got around to balancing yet. I believe reducing the TU cost of throwing flares should be lowered to 20 and TU cost of throwing grenades lowered to 30. Thank you for reading.

Now is the part where the community can help. Xenonauts is easy to mod so you may be able to change this your self. I will refer to the forumites with green names.

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Adjusting TU cost based on distance is probably a good idea, but I'd leave everything else alone. It might lead to situations where you could toss smoke and relocate but I don't have as much difficulty with that as I have with an across the board reduced TU cost for flares and smoke. Which would only encourage spamming, particularly of flares.

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I thought I did make it into a productive discussion?

I don't know what I said that indicated I don't understand this is beta, that I wanted to come off aggressive or insulting, or that I didn't provide some thoughts on how I think it could be shifted to improve gameplay. "But couldn't it be..." is me opening into my feedback. I -wanted- it to be a discussion where people could say how they feel or how they disagree with me or the way it currently is, not sure what I did to come off toxic. o.O

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Adjusting TU cost based on distance is probably a good idea, but I'd leave everything else alone. It might lead to situations where you could toss smoke and relocate but I don't have as much difficulty with that as I have with an across the board reduced TU cost for flares and smoke. Which would only encourage spamming, particularly of flares.

It wouldn't have to be shifted in such a way that the end result is "spamming"... Not that flares shouldn't be somewhat spammed at night missions even at their current cost you still kind of have to spam them. Just a slight shift from the 40-44 that I think it is, It could go to say 30ish, That wouldn't be so drastic that suddenly people are spamming, but it also wouldn't cost more to throw a flare than it does to launch a rocket.

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30ish is reasonable enough alright. When I read your post I got the impression that you were looking for them to be significantly reduced.

As for flare spamming at the moment, that's a side-effect of the unlimited number of flares. If that was changed (so each Xenonaut had 2-3) then reducing the TU cost even further I imagine would work out quite well. Right now the only thing stopping excessive flare spam is the TU cost and how patient people are.

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Sadly the flare cost is only the most punishing early in the game and on night missions which are already harder in the early game. I would definitely support reducing the TU cost in order to make the night missions a little less boring and grindy.

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I thought I did make it into a productive discussion?

...stuff...

You used aggressive work styling not really a problem with everyone else who isnt me.

I feel spamming flares is a decent thing... You always lose say 30 TUs and if you get in a fight... Well you dont have 30 TUs for firing or running.

I would not like 2-3 flares per unit. Either give me limitless flares or let me fill backpacks with them at base 0.0

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You used aggressive work styling not really a problem with everyone else who isnt me.

I feel spamming flares is a decent thing... You always lose say 30 TUs and if you get in a fight... Well you dont have 30 TUs for firing or running.

I would not like 2-3 flares per unit. Either give me limitless flares or let me fill backpacks with them at base 0.0

Well, any aggression wasn't intentional.

I agree on not having 2-3 flares. Night missions are already multiple times harder than day missions, perhaps excessively so. I definitely wouldn't do anything to make them even more difficult... that and alien base invasions would be much more difficult as well.

I think time units themselves are enough limitation on how many flares you can get out, but I also think it is a bit over the top in that regard because as it stands now if you want to be safe you have to basically skip an entire turn throwing out flares every other/couple moves. It isn't very fun having to do that and your unit not being able to do anything else until they are extremely experienced on those turns. Which is even more rough because throwing things is a bit buggy right now so sometimes the flare will just blow up on you so you have to waste another move and/or turn.

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I didn't find your post aggressive, or trollish.

Anyway, it does make sense to have flares at least have a lower TU cost than grenades (of any sort). I mean, flares don't have to have a super secure pin in place, you just rip the cord, right? An actual grenade takes two hands to use, due to the pins being secure. However, flares you could probably rip out the cord with your teeth, movie style. Of course, they'd have to be delayed fuse flares to avoid toasting your face when you pull the cord, but that's not hard to do.

At any rate, flares should have a lower TU cost to throw.

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tough one this. I've seen some pretty accurate flare throwing in play throughs from previous X-Com games, as well as here on Xenonuats. There are occasions where it''s a specific area that you want, and not just general.

Of course, with a grenade we had enough fumbles and throwing them off colleagues heads in earlier builds that I think everyone wants to take care when throwing. Having said that, sometimes you just want to try and suppress/ damage an area, and so only the not blowing yourself up part is important.

TO me, that would indicate a system just like the guns where you have TU tiers. A lower starting point for flare spamming (and I do agree you should have plenty of them compared to grenades) but with a tier for greater accuracy. Grenades start at a higher cost (taking into account basic caution), but again, you can have a more precise through available.

In case you are from the steam forum and thus are a poisonous toxic influence

I just can't imagine why we dind't have that up as a forum banner, when the Steam version launched. A career in PR awaits you Name :)

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+1 to not finding the original post aggressive in any way, it was a strongly stated opinion backed up by reasonable arguments.

That said I wouldn't want too much variation in TUs because it'd be a PITA to plan APs if you have to constantly check the throw cost. Perhaps one cost for flares, one for grenades/ammo, one for weapons? Aim tiers for throwing is interesting and makes some sense, but it's not something I feel strongly about.

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I agree that throwing flares is to high a cost but could you provide feedback and advice so that we can make thi early access game better in terms of balance and game play. I imagine eventually the devs will get around to this issue but until then other forumites will shoot off ideas.

In case you are from the steam forum and thus are a poisonous toxic influence here are some ways to be productive about this blatant balancing error.

Hello. I Think the TU cost of throwing objects is too high and does not benefit game play. Having to pent all of our soldiers small amount of TUs to throw a grenade that may not even do anything seems like a bug and/or a feature you have not got around to balancing yet. I believe reducing the TU cost of throwing flares should be lowered to 20 and TU cost of throwing grenades lowered to 30. Thank you for reading.

Now is the part where the community can help. Xenonauts is easy to mod so you may be able to change this your self. I will refer to the forumites with green names.

Just because a few people from Steam are how do you put it? "Poisonous Toxic" Doesn't mean the majority is. I respect the fact that you have been here for a while, but you have to understand these new people are a new set of eyes looking at the game. They sure as hell don't need to be admonished for what you perceived as an aggressive post. Which in my eyes was far from it.

Please don't paint everyone with the same brush, It's rude and downright arrogant.

Now on to the post topic, I agree with the OP. It would be nice to have multiple options with thrown items. The idea/concept is sound. I'd like to put in that (If i remember correctly) items in the backpack would cost more to throw as you had to get them out, where as gear on your belt was quicker. Is this in the game do we know?

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+1 to not finding the original post aggressive in any way, it was a strongly stated opinion backed up by reasonable arguments.

That said I wouldn't want too much variation in TUs because it'd be a PITA to plan APs if you have to constantly check the throw cost. Perhaps one cost for flares, one for grenades/ammo, one for weapons? Aim tiers for throwing is interesting and makes some sense, but it's not something I feel strongly about.

That makes sense, I wouldn't want to screw myself tu's wise having no idea what the throw would cost because it is distance based either.

In that case I would just go with the slight lower cost for flares, while keeping nades and stuns the same cost as they are now. I think that would be easy enough to keep track of and as long as we don't start changing the tu's of everything to all different levels it wouldn't be too overwhelming. I really like about 30 tus for flares, I certainly wouldn't like having rookies tossing out 3 flares a turn, but i'm also against flares costing more TU's than a rocket(and providing less vision if the rocket causes a fire by the way), which is a bit awkward.

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I set them to 25, and that's working out pretty well. Throwing them from the quickslot adds 12 TU's, so all grenades and flares actually are at 30 TU to throw.

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So if you start a match with all your soldiers holding grenades instead of guns .... you can run out of the chopper screaming and throwing grenades everywhere.

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Part of why I like running with pistols, specially for night missions.

Though night missions will become harder once I can't just spam flares across the entire map, one end to the other.

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I thought I did make it into a productive discussion?

I don't know what I said that indicated I don't understand this is beta, that I wanted to come off aggressive or insulting, or that I didn't provide some thoughts on how I think it could be shifted to improve gameplay. "But couldn't it be..." is me opening into my feedback. I -wanted- it to be a discussion where people could say how they feel or how they disagree with me or the way it currently is, not sure what I did to come off toxic. o.O

There was absolutely nothing wrong with what you said or how to said it.

I thought it was just me who felt throwing was a little pricey, especially night mission. It would be nice if you could move a bit and chuck a flare in one turn.

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Since theres no hurry to actually get to the crash site I've been skipping night missions altogether. Not sure a few TU's worth of flare time would be enough to fix that unless the game threw me a bonus to actually get to the crash sites asap.

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