18.51 Initial Impressions

[StellarRat]

#1 Improvement: The AI is VASTLY better! It was aggressive, moved up and engaged my guys from three directions one turn out of the Chinook. I had two wounded before I could even get to decent cover. The AI used cover well and didn't retreat until it was outnumbered about four to one locally even then it moved back to a better and continued to fire. You will definitely need to use "real" tactics to win now. Running out across the open with no scouting and no covering fire will get you killed. You have to operate as a team now. Single troops are dead meat. It will ambush you and it will fire until you're dead. No more reaction fire only. I gotta give the AI a HUGE thumbs up.

The new "blood drop" to indicate bleeding troops is an excellent idea.

My only major issue: You still can't throw grenades from behind/over objects. I really think this ought to be fixed before the game is released to Steam.

Only a couple small glitches. I was able to run through a car and I had some minor issues with the base menus.

This might be an actual beta candidate, but I'll to play quite a bit more before I can be sure. Right now, I'm pretty impressed.

Edited May 23, 2013 by StellarRat

[Cwell]

Try throws past half-cover types when being within a few tiles (like standing behind as cover, or within 2/3 tiles)

I used flares a lot on a couple night missions, hoping it's not a flare-only thing

[StellarRat]

Try throws past half-cover types when being within a few tiles (like standing behind as cover, or within 2/3 tiles)

I used flares a lot on a couple night missions, hoping it's not a flare-only thing

I couldn't even throw over the hood of a car. It's a definitely a bug. It's always been a bug.

[Cwell]

i've thrown (flares) past fences and half-solid walls, even with a stone 3x1 water thing for cattle behind the half-wall in the farm map.

I had bounces off of the full walls though

Edit : i just loaded a saved mission, tried to throw each type and it worked.

Stand behind a "half-cover" (waist high wall), you can throw the 4 types (smoke, frag, suppression, flare)

I guess they need to put cars in the "half cover" type

Edited May 23, 2013 by Cwell

[StellarRat]

i've thrown (flares) past fences and half-solid walls, even with a stone 3x1 water thing for cattle behind the half-wall in the farm map.

I had bounces off of the full walls though

Yes, and that's a problem. In the original game you could throw over objects and that makes perfect sense with a grenade. Only two story objects should block them.

[Waladil]

Grenades should be able to be thrown over pretty much any cover. Or at the very least there should be a clear indicator of what would stop a grenade or not.

I haven't tried it yet, and don't want to test, but do your own soldiers still count as "full cover?" I hate hitting my own guys in the back of the head with a grenade.

[StellarRat]

Grenades should be able to be thrown over pretty much any cover. Or at the very least there should be a clear indicator of what would stop a grenade or not.

I haven't tried it yet, and don't want to test, but do your own soldiers still count as "full cover?" I hate hitting my own guys in the back of the head with a grenade.

I don't think I've ever tried that, but my guess is that if the soldier is standing up it will bounce off his head and blow both of your guys up. LOL.

[Wolverik]

In normal difficulty mode I have the impression that Aliens are now Super heroes. They know exactly where you are , they shoot down the wall, than shoot you and they rarely miss. Especially at the start of the game it is very difficult to survive, or am I such a bad player . I don’t rush in but play with squads of 4, take cover ....

I will try easy mode now and hope this is more forgiving….

For the rest great game, seems to be stable now since i don't have CTD 's like before.

[StellarRat]

In normal difficulty mode I have the impression that Aliens are now Super heroes. They know exactly where you are , they shoot down the wall, than shoot you and they rarely miss. Especially at the start of the game it is very difficult to survive, or am I such a bad player . I don’t rush in but play with squads of 4, take cover ....

I will try easy mode now and hope this is more forgiving….

For the rest great game, seems to be stable now since i don't have CTD 's like before.

Couple things. First as far as I know the difficultly levels haven't been implemented yet, so changing them has no effect on the game play. Second, if you're getting shot a lot you're probably playing too fast. I lose an average of one soldier every two to four missions, so I don't think the aliens are super heroes. You need to move in short spurts and use every bit of cover you can find even if you're not sure where the aliens are. I've also found that if you watch where enemy fire is coming from you can sometimes kill them just by using fire directed into the approximate spot even if you can't see them. This is especialliy effective with rockets and the LMG. If you miss with the rocket launcher you can sometimes throw enough smoke that the aliens will have reduced effectiveness against you.

[Cwell]

On my 3rd mission (a normal Scout) i have "Guards" Sebillians (slightly better than base), and felt quite harder than the Caesan/Sebillian based pistol. Those Rifles burst fire hurt, and quite a bit more when they fired at 20+ range

[StellarRat]

On my 3rd mission (a normal Scout) i have "Guards" Sebillians (slightly better than base), and felt quite harder than the Caesan/Sebillian based pistol. Those Rifles burst fire hurt, and quite a bit more when they fired at 20+ range

Yeah, the plasma rifles are deadly and they have auto fire capability. Your best bet is to use a scout car to find them and keep your guys back to engage. Use the LMG and Hunter MG to suppress them then move up carefully to take them out OR blast them with the rocket launcher. Jackel armor is also a lifesaver.

ALSO, right now there is a bug where aliens can fire through certain objects that they shouldn't be able to fire through. This reduces the effectiveness of cover. A hotfix is out today to fix this (5/23/2013). Check the announcements page for the download link.

[lemm]

On the flip side, I've been able to hurl grenades halfway across the map.

Xenonaut soldiers are throwing fastballs and not arcing lobs.

[StellarRat]

On the flip side, I've been able to hurl grenades halfway across the map.

Xenonaut soldiers are throwing fastballs and not arcing lobs.

Chris says this will be addressed.

[Solver]

The AI is much better, but underscores certain issues with reaction fire. That is, I'm convinced certain triggers shouldn't be there (turning around, possibly throwing grenades), and the overwhelming power of the Hunter. The scout car is extremely desirable not because of power or anything but because of reaction fire. Aliens reaction fire a lot, and have longer vision than your soldiers, so it's very hard to move without endangering yourself, while the scout car is too perfect for it not to use it.

One thing I'd consider would be to make smoke act as a defense against reaction fire, where units moving through smoke are less likely to be reaction fired at.

[StellarRat]

The AI is much better, but underscores certain issues with reaction fire. That is, I'm convinced certain triggers shouldn't be there (turning around, possibly throwing grenades), and the overwhelming power of the Hunter. The scout car is extremely desirable not because of power or anything but because of reaction fire. Aliens reaction fire a lot, and have longer vision than your soldiers, so it's very hard to move without endangering yourself, while the scout car is too perfect for it not to use it.

One thing I'd consider would be to make smoke act as a defense against reaction fire, where units moving through smoke are less likely to be reaction fired at.

But smoke already reduces accuracy. You wouldn't want it to be too effective. It very unlikely that the Xenonauts could ever lay down enough smoke with just grenades to completely cloak themselves from enemy fire. Even if they could, it would lead to all kinds of exploits and probably make the game very unbalanced in favor of the Xenonauts. Perhaps the Hunter could be slightly nerfed, but I wouldn't be in favor of making smoke too effective. I rethink my opinion once I get a chance to play some more with the new hotfix in place.

[Waladil]

Well Solver did just recommend that it would "reduce" the chance of reaction fire, not prevent it. That seems very plausible from both a lore and gameplay standpoint. It would make your troop movements harder to see and therefore take shots at.

Maybe it should, instead, have a doubled accuracy debuff to reaction shots? So if smoke usually gives you -20 accuracy (I don't know the real number), then it would give -40 to reaction shots? Personally I'd prefer a reduction in chance rather than that, but it's another idea.

I find it hard to believe that smoke grenades would ever be too OP in favor of the Xenonauts. Remember that the smoke works both ways, so your troops will reaction fire less and be less accurate too. Mostly because you'd have to chuck 2-3 to get a good smokescreen up and you can only bring X number of grenades. At that point just bring stunners and capture the aliens.

[Solver]

Yeah, my proposal is a reduced chance of reaction fire. And perhaps nerf the accuracy protection even. I think smoke should be primarily an anti-reaction-fire thing, not act like extra cover (which is essentially what it does with accuracy reduction).

Smoke gives -20 accuracy (nice guess Waladil!) - my initial rebalance if I were in charge (wait, I am not in charge? what happened?) would be -10 accuracy but a 40% or even 50% reduction to reaction fire chance. Thus making protection against reaction fire the main reason for laying down smoke, and making sure you want to put smoke somewhere before you go there if you suspect aliens.

[StellarRat]

Yeah, my proposal is a reduced chance of reaction fire. And perhaps nerf the accuracy protection even. I think smoke should be primarily an anti-reaction-fire thing, not act like extra cover (which is essentially what it does with accuracy reduction).

Smoke gives -20 accuracy (nice guess Waladil!) - my initial rebalance if I were in charge (wait, I am not in charge? what happened?) would be -10 accuracy but a 40% or even 50% reduction to reaction fire chance. Thus making protection against reaction fire the main reason for laying down smoke, and making sure you want to put smoke somewhere before you go there if you suspect aliens.

But from an overall perspective and probably mathematically, inaccurate reaction fire has the same effect as less frequent reaction fire, so I'm a bit puzzled as to why you think reducing the chance for reaction fire is the way to go. I'd rather have a further reduction in accuracy caused by smoke because I think it's more exciting to have your troops advancing under fire (provided they aren't getting hit too often of course.) Besides, if the aliens fire more often you have a better chance of figuring out where they are.

[GizmoGomez]

I'd rather it be reduced accuracy, and not chance, as well.

Besides, what would you do if you were reaction firing?

Wait to line up a shot, letting the enemy fire at you while you get a bead on them? Or fire as quickly as you can and try to suppress their aiming efforts, also possibly hitting them in the process, so you have time to line up a shot before you yourself get shot?

[Solver]

Reduced accuracy and reduced probability are only equivalent if the two are reduced by the same factor. If you reduce accuracy in smoke by 10% but probability of reaction fire by 30%, it's not the same as reducing accuracy by 10% across the board. Even further, accuracy penalties are two-sided, while reaction fire penalty is not. If you sit in smoke now, you are better protected, but you are also less dangerous by exactly the same amount. If smoke reduced reaction probability, then moving into smoke would provide more protection than reduction in offensive capability, not both equally.

Advancing under fire makes sense, but also smoke is used as concealment, hopefully allowing you to move somewhere without the enemy even noticing that movement, which I'd like to see.

[GizmoGomez]

Well, using smoke as concealment would be extremely difficult, as you would need to pump out literally tons of smoke to completely block sight. I'd think it'd be more of a blurring effect, so you can still see through it, but the outlines of enemies are blurred and broken up, much like what digital camo does.

[Waladil]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d227zKrC0RA

Watch that video. Aside from the unprofessionality of it (I just found it really quick) there were a few times the smoke went over a person... and he completely disappeared. That smoke is thick enough that movement behind it would be totally concealed... I'd argue, having watching that, that smoke instead of reducing accuracy or reaction fire chance, ought to (meaning to match lore rather than as a game mechanic) act as blocked lines of sight. So no reaction shots because no LOS at all. That seems like it'd be bad gameplay, but smoke that thick would be impossible to have even reasonable reaction fire through.

If you want to argue that aliens would fire through the smoke, then you can make that argument but it wouldn't be reaction fire. That's fire that should be done on the alien's turn.

(And no, it's not "literally tons of smoke." That was one grenade, while a full smokescreen would probably be two or three.)

[StellarRat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d227zKrC0RA

Watch that video. Aside from the unprofessionality of it (I just found it really quick) there were a few times the smoke went over a person... and he completely disappeared. That smoke is thick enough that movement behind it would be totally concealed... I'd argue, having watching that, that smoke instead of reducing accuracy or reaction fire chance, ought to (meaning to match lore rather than as a game mechanic) act as blocked lines of sight. So no reaction shots because no LOS at all. That seems like it'd be bad gameplay, but smoke that thick would be impossible to have even reasonable reaction fire through.

If you want to argue that aliens would fire through the smoke, then you can make that argument but it wouldn't be reaction fire. That's fire that should be done on the alien's turn.

(And no, it's not "literally tons of smoke." That was one grenade, while a full smokescreen would probably be two or three.)

That is hardly a breeze and covers a very small area and not completely. Notice the density and where it is covering changes constantly. Hardly reliable concealment.

Edited May 26, 2013 by StellarRat

[Waladil]

Okay but that doesn't change the fact that a unit behind the smoke (wherever it may be) is damn near undetectable. So make it so smoke locations change slightly from round to round.

Also, envision the effects of that in an enclosed space... say the interior of a scout. The entire room would fill, and nobody would be able to see in or out at all.

[lemm]

I think one of the biggest issues with the smoke grenades in the original XCOM is that they were far too powerful. The smoke cloud acted like a shroud of invulnerability. You could just move out in to the middle of the field, drop a smoke grenade with 2 TU remaining, and be practically undetectable.

For this reason, I like the idea of having smoke reduce the accuracy or probability of reaction fire without penalizing regular fire too much. It gives the player one turn to move across the open and "do something," which could be either finding a better cover or scouting ahead to spot an alien beyond the visual range of his snipers. In other words, smoke grenades have to be used "tactically" to augment the initiative that you have on your turn, and not just as magical cloaks that let you advance with impunity.

With respect to realism.... well the game has plasma guns and flying saucers and soldiers who can see no farther than 30 yards, I don't know how far we need to approximate reality. If you need an explanation, you could posit that the smoke makes it harder for a soldier to initially acquire a target, but once the target is spotted, the smoke then has little concealing effect. I have no idea if that has any basis in reality.

Edited May 26, 2013 by lemm