Unlimited ammo a good thing?

[thothkins]

See what I mean? Wouldn't this also qualify as condescending?

What post was that from? Honestly, this Equal Opportunity Condescension Programme I'm running where I randomly ignore everyone's posts equally, just means I don't know what anyone's typing about

My post above was following on from trashmans

Either build/buy everything or make everything insta-free.

From that I felt a good middle ground is to keep the big ticket items and get shot of everything else as freebies. Pretty much where the game has gone in the last couple of builds. Then I wondered how it could be explained.

That only applies if it's simple to create the new ammunition.

What the game does say, is at some stage all of the funding nations can produce laser weapons. They can produce them whether you give them alloys or not. That all local forces on all funding nations can get them, would indicate that there's a lot of them about (unless they also chinook in the same local forces that always get there just before you do). If not simple, then certainly widespread.

And skills aerospace engineers? Once you build one you can always mass-produce.

There is a point in the game where the locals can also take down the smaller UFOs, showing that, like the laser technology, they can advance their own aircraft. So, there is mass production eventually. It just takes a bit longer which I think is fine. Perhaps there should be a point late game where you can buy Foxttrots and not just Condors?

Indeed, why not. I don't recall anyone saying you shouldn't be able to.

Well, on one side you don't have to because they are free. On the other you have to pay for the manufacture of all ammo and include a trading system with the funding nations as they all seem to get it during the game.

While it may not match what you would like to see in the game, I think there's logic between the abundance of the technology available to local forces and the Xenonauts not having to pay for it.

[erutan]

I like the idea of being able to buy older tier stuff after you've researched a tier or two above it. It'd help you fill out a new base / recover from disaster in a pinch but still leave less than optimal.

[thothkins]

taking that further if you were on tier four weapons and your squad is wiped out, you could have at least laser weapons to fall back on, assuming that local forces are already using them. Infinite weapons* anyone?

[zolobolo]

Having played a few days now with higher tier weapons as well I can say that I have not truly felt the absence of ammo micromanagement (and I am a BIG fan of the original concept). The reason for this was mostly due to laser weapons now requiring clips and a 4th tier of weapons above plasma. This, combined with the wider range of functional weapons in each tier gives much more combination to the equipment (e.g.: there were no sniper specific weapons before). This is a solid system which in several cases required me to combine different tier weapons and thus ammo clips for a specific soldier and presto: ammo management returned especially in higher tiers.

Now I hope the four tiers will in the end have their own nice on the battlefield:

Ballistic: for rookies shooting in long range but does not do much damage

Laser: Cheap accurate but does not do much damage and short ranged

Plasma: Costs a lot but highest damage with slightly low accuracy and HEAVY as non another (needs Arne to carry it around )

MAG: The pinnacle of human engineering (my favorite) has the highest costs, long range, more accurate but does slightly less damage then plasma.

The last tier is very important for the lore and the theme the game is going. I think it should represent the high-end of human weapons where not a single aspect (damage) is important but overall value on the battlefield. Plus no human made weapon should do more damage than high-end alien weapons - same argument as with physic powers. It is not believable that humans would produce more damage output then the aliens within months of the invasion. Plus the aliens go for destruction, and humans should stand for tactical fineness and surgical strikes.

Range is now linearly decreasing with each tier while damage is increasing. With the above changes, each tier would have their own purpose on the field even in the endgame, and would result in two different types of ammo carried around by soldiers witch combined with weight and strength imitations would result in fun ammo management in equipment screen.

If I understand correctly the tiers currently differentiate in the following way:

Damage Weight Range Accuracy ClipSize

Tier 1 1 1 1 1 1

Tier 2 2 2 -6 1 -1

Tier 3 3 3 -8 -1 -2

Tier 4 4 4 -10 2 -3

The problem with the above is that the difference is rather linear and does not show much character on the filed. I am thinking of something in this line:

Damage Weight Range Accuracy ClipSize

Tier 1 1 1 1 1 1

Tier 2 2 2 -4 3 -1

Tier 3 4 3 -8 -1 -2

Tier 4 3 4 -2 2 -2

Price would increase with each tier

There are nice setups imaginable in such a way that optimize damage with combined tiers even if money as no issue, e.g.: MAG sniper gun + plasma pistol (since sniper gun requires range and accuracy, while pistol is used in short range.

or: MAG pistol + granade for rookies who want to do high damage while not closing in too much but money is an issue

[erutan]

Not worrying about specific ranges, just doing 1 (worst) > 4 (best):

_____ D W R A C

Tier1 1 4 1 2 4

Tier2 2 3 2 4 3

Tier3 4 2 3 1 1

Tier4 3 1 4 3 2

I think the whole range + accuracy formula needs to be redone ala stellarrats suggestions, but that said I'd see progression like this. I think you could easily swap a few things around (plasma/laser range, mag/plasma weight and clip, etc).

Edited April 29, 2013 by erutan
fixed with font ftw

[zolobolo]

The reasoning behind shorter ranged advanced weapons would be to balance off their strengths in damage and in accuracy in case of Laser and MAG, else the aliens would get the short end of the balance if we stay long ranged and more accurate too easily.

The lore would support this, due to energy weapons loosing strength in atmosphere hence the shorter range in laser and plasma which the aliens were not prepared for thus their standard plasma based weapons are short ranged (balanced by their damage output and larger unit sight range).

Any ways there should a strong reason why to take Tier 1 weapons even after having all tiers e.g. via range reduction which would be balanced off by the huge costs of the last tier.

We could also say that the advanced weapons are always better than Tier 1 and unless the player has severe money issues, higher tiers should always be used but the more tiers are used in the equipment the more fun it is to figure out our configurations. If all tiers have their strengths and weaknesses, the combination of 4 tiers and 5 weapons in each is a sure way to long playing value, and never ending discussions on what the perfect setup is

The elements are all in place, let me know what you think.

Edited April 28, 2013 by zolobolo

[erutan]

Ah, I misread your original chart a bit. I agree that just being able to snipe aliens seems wrong, but it seems to me that railguns would have pretty damn good range. imho there shouldn't be any need to keep Tier 1 a viable option endgame. Overall the later tiers should be more desireable, with the lower tiers having a niche place / different feel otherwise the sense of progression is lost - that does need to balanced with things just feeling too linear however.

Maybe:

_____ D W R A C

Tier1 1 4 3 2 4

Tier2 2 3 1 4 3

Tier3 4 2 2 1 2

Tier4 3 1 4 3 1

pre tier4 rifles would generally be ideal at tier 2 and carbines/pistols at tier 3. LMG would vary on how you use it. I suppose the precision rifle stays viable in tier 1 the longest, but a very accurate sniper would be deadly with plasma and most would stick with MAG if they could.

Edited April 29, 2013 by erutan

[GizmoGomez]

Yeah, MAG would have the best range, definitely. I mean, it's a super accelerated bit of metal. It's basically super-mega-death-ballistics, really. It'd have incredible armor penetration, high damage, but probably not as much raw damage as plasma. Since the aliens use plasma themselves, their armor would be good against plasma (but better against ballistics and laser), but MAG would punch right through it.

Actually, all in all, I agree with your chart above, Erutan. Looks good to me.

To explain:

D: Plasma burns stuff like nothing else, so it'd have the highest damage, MAG getting 2nd place in that category, then laser and ballistics.

W: Weight wise, the higher the tier, the heavier (makes sense. Batteries weigh some, but not as much as gas canisters for plasma, but not as much as large wire rings and metal slugs). Also, for balance reasons.

R: For max range, lasers would be diffused by the atmosphere, plasma as well but less so, actual metal would exceed the range on both of those, the faster the better.

A: Lasers would be the most accurate, ballistics the least, and MAG winning over plasma for 2nd place due to it's incredible velocity.

C: Clip size makes sense getting smaller as the tech increases, for balance reasons.

We should add armor penetration to the list, though (there is an armor penetration stat, right? I didn't just make that up?). I say it should be MAG at the best, definitely, due to it's incredible speed (and for balance reasons. Honestly, I want these guns to be super awesome, because they should be). Plasma would burn through the armor better than laser, and ballistics are useless, basically, for obvious reasons.

I hope that contributes to the conversation.

[erutan]

Yup clip and weight are heavily with balance in mind, though that's also assuming that soldiers do get to carry more as they progress in the game. It might be interesting to make tier2-3 weigh less than a later one, but have it's ammo weigh more (promoting it as a backup). Dunno.

I'm uncertain about range - current handheld laser pointers can go for miles and miles and they're not even strong enough to harm anyone, but maybe due to a wider beam / lower frequency these diffract a lot sooner? Why would plasma go further but be more affected by atmosphere in terms of accuracy but not range? idk I'm not a science person. Lasers are our first technology jump at least. I think for balance reasons it keeps things interesting, though having plasma in-accurate and short ranged but very powerful makes damage against our troops frustratingly spiky (cue sathra and the plasma cannon).

I agree on armor penetration, I'll add that in as P. btw I'm wrapping my little chart in a font tag with courier new and using a size of 3 if someone wants to pop up their own.

----- D W R A C P

Tier1 1 4 3 1 4 1

Tier2 2 3 1 4 3 2

Tier3 4 2 2 2 2 3

Tier4 3 1 4 3 1 4

Totals not counting clip size and weight:

t1 6

t2 9

t3 11

t4 14

Totals counting clip size and weight:

t1 14

t2 15

t3 15

t4 16

Ballistics main advantage is clip size and weight. And cost.

Laser is very accurate with a little less reach, but not packing as much of a punch. Remains a good choice for rookies on a budget late game, and is a compelling upgrade earlier due to relatively inexperienced soldiers. They'd also make a good backup ranged weapon for assault types.

Plasma is an all around balanced weapon with less accuracy, a bit more reach, but much higher damage than laser. Great for plasma, but you'll want experienced soldiers using them for mid-long range. I made it more accurate than ballistics just because even with atmo it is still crazy advanced and you generally outnumber aliens in the beginning. This also makes damage slightly more predictable later?

MAG is an all around great weapon for mid-long range fighting, and if you have the cash can make a rookie a deadly soldier. Experienced Assault types might still want to stick with plasma.

Edited April 29, 2013 by erutan

[Lt_Parsons]

There can also be another variable - tu cost of shots.

Laser, for example, may require to focus on target for some time to damage it, plasma require time to readjust to specifics of plasma trajectory, when t1 and t4 just have familiar for soldiers point and shoot ballistics.

[erutan]

Oy. Yeah, forgot about those.

----- D W R A C P T

Tier1 1 4 3 1 4 1 4

Tier2 2 3 1 4 3 2 1

Tier3 4 2 2 2 2 3 2

Tier4 3 1 4 3 1 4 3

Totals not counting clip size, weight, and TUs:

t1 6

t2 9

t3 11

t4 14

Totals counting clip size, weight, and TUs:

t1 18 (!!)

t2 16

t3 17

t4 19

Totals/numbers are slightly BS because some might be almost the same and others very different, but it makes things a little easier for me to grasp.

Looking at this I'm mentally kind of balancing around plasma now (makes also sense since the aliens have it too) and moving up/down from it, rather than starting at ballistics and adjusting from that.

Edited April 29, 2013 by erutan

[GizmoGomez]

Plasma might actually have less range than laser, now that I think about it. I mean, plasma is ionized gas, and there's the "antimatter" holding it together. The gas could dissipate, and actually would do so fairly quickly. Lasers can be focused to ignore the atmosphere, however, and would be able to go much farther. I had forgotten about the compensating focus that can be attained. However, since we don't have adequate information about the exact atmosphere in front of the barrel, lasers would lose focus fairly quickly as well, but wouldn't lose range as quickly as plasma.

Actually, I would recommend calling it a graviton instead of antimatter, because calling it antimatter makes no sense. Antimatter would simple annihilate with some matter, creating a release of energy (if a lot of antimatter, a whole heck of a lot of energy). It wouldn't behave as the game says it would.

However, gravitons are the hypothesized particle relating to gravity, as the photon relates to electromagnetism, the gluon relates to the strong nuclear force, and the W and Z bosons for the weak nuclear force.

While they technically wouldn't act as the game says either, since they actually relate to gravity, it'd make a lot more sense to people who actually know what antimatter is and how it behaves, even if only on an elementary level.

I'm going to put this in the suggestions bin to see what comes of it.

[Sathra]

I just went 'eh' and went with it, because aliens. Though a part of me went, 'wouldn't that be immensely dangerous and/or explode with frankly terrifying power?"

Currently lasers are slightly more accurate than everything else (besides MAG) with plasma being a tiny bit less accurate than ballistic. Damage and penetration goes straight up as you go up the tiers, possibly due to the increasing armour of the alien ranks. TU's are roughly the same (1 TU differences, except for the MG-class).

So the proposition is to have the tiers wildly different to foster a mix of tiers for...I dunno, looks? Efficiency? Something like that.

Doesn't bother me either way, since the current method is to have the next tier pretty much better than the previous, a clear progression. Helps new players since you don't have to really test each out.

The proposed change wouldn't be exactly obvious without a grounding in science and theory and would require playing around with each tier to see the difference. Would probably end up with a certain tier weapon being the best of its class (plasma carbine being the best carbine for instance) and the others being rated against that and only used by vets if they have no choice.

Would be interesting though.

[zolobolo]

Ok, I think we are on the same page with Erutan, except for Range, but I would also like his proposal (its just a matter of perspective):

You are right Sathra that the tiers should be more accessable for new players (newer beeing better), and that is one reason I would change my oppinion on making Tier 1 weapons still relevant in end-game to making the mobsolete and only a fallback option till mid-game.

The point of the rebalance is this: make more tiers relevant mid and endgame even if you have the cash, and I think that can be achieved with MAG beeing less stronger than plasma but more accurate.

Ballistic: Low damage but reliable to hit staddard loadout (gets replaced as soon as cash permits)

Laser: Slightly higher damage with best accuracy, but less range and takes more TU-s

Plasma: Highset damage output, but inacurate and notvery long range

MAG: Long range precision alien blaster. Less damage then plasma but good accuracy and range (not the best in either). AS mentioned before, it would still be the best allround weapon if you have cash, while still boosting the weights and clip negatives to pull down rookies

Thus plasma can be used by expert players to great efficiency and we can generally fall back to plasma or laser mid and end-game if need be making the game mode dynamic (ballistic would then be suicid )

The rebalance of MAG not only serves the above point, but is also logical lore wise, humans not beeign able to create more advanced weapons then that of the aliens, but create the best tool for their purpose: a reliable all rounder even if you do not have veteran soldiers to handle them at least for rifles and pistols.

Edited April 29, 2013 by zolobolo

[GizmoGomez]

We could simply say what they were better at in the research descriptions. Like, for lasers, they are more accurate and more heavy hitting than ballistics, but weigh more and have less ammo. For plasma, say it's marginally less accurate than ballistics, but does incredible damage. For MAG, say it's got immense range, slightly better accuracy than ballistics but less than lasers, and does almost as much damage as plasma but has better armor penetration, etc.

Oh, I've got a cunning plan.

How about, in the research description the scientist directs the player (not a link, just suggests they go check out) the weapon xenopedia articles, specifically a comparison between tiers article. Could we have the article update as we research new tiers or weapons?

Or, we could have several articles, but they replace each other as we get higher up in the researching. So, if we've got ballistics (which we always do) and laser, it compares those two. If we've got ballistics, laser and plasma, it does those three. All four, it does all four. If we get to plasma before laser, then we have one for ballistics and plasma only. Basically, all possible combinations of researches completed would have an article for comparing those weapons, without giving anything away.

It'd please a lot of players who like to be able to use past tier weapons for a specific reason, not simply because they cost less or whatever. It would allow much more choice for the players as well. For example, do I choose accuracy over damage? Armor penetration over clip size? Etc etc. It'd make the weapons much more familiar to the players as well, instead of just giving them and saying, "Have fun!" without telling them how they compare to anything else.

[zolobolo]

Agreed. The game benefits from distinct weapons that do not differentiate from one another linearly like: The new X+1 gun is better but bigger.

The original topic has been about amo. It has been argumented that the emphasis would be given to equiping the soliders instead of micromanagement of ammo. Continuing on that line, the equipment of the soldiers becomes too linear if the differences between tiers is linear. Need to spice up the equipment so player is motivated to use different tiers depending on soldier XP, money AND more advanced considerations so that many soldiers are equiped with 2 weapons of different tier and thus also requiring different type of ammo clips - and it is here where soldiers carrying capacity is put on strain.

A generaic player would simply equip with latest tier which would still work, but cost more and would be a bit less effective as if strongly specialised equiment schemas are created depending on soldiers specs money and mission.

[Sathra]

Plasma now requires laser tech, just a by and by.

In my mind its a unnecessary addition to weapons (yes, it is unnecessary, but not saying its unneeded) since the current schema is to have the differences in the weapon classes.

Carbines for short range but good armour penetration. Sniper for penetration and range. MG for penetration, range and power (actually, maybe have MG's have less penetration? Wouldn't be such an end all weapon that way). Rifles are the all rounder but not as good as the specialised weapons in their roles. And pistols are 1-handed, but pretty inferior to everything else but necessary for certain roles or as backup weapons.

[GizmoGomez]

Yeah, that is true. (And that would make my xenopedia idea a whole lot simpler, if plasma requires laser, making the process linear and all).

[erutan]

Range is something that baffles me - I feel like lasers should have miles more range than ballistics (basically just up to human bodies wiggling the weapon for accuracy), but what do I know.

Minor shifts between range and accuracy might just end up being confusing.

Weapon A has a range of 20 tiles, accuracy 75.

Weapon B has a range of 19 tiles, but an accuracy of 78.

Which is effectively better?

@gizmo I'd like to see a nice way to scan stats of all the weapons - hovering in the equip screen is pretty inefficient. I think putting a side/bottom stats section for each tier in the xenopedia would be the simplest way to do it. It'd be cool to have something like the soldier select screen for weapons where you can just skim all the stats - that could be a xenopedia entry "current weapons" or something.

[Sathra]

Hopefully the new UI has an area for weapon stats in the equip screen. If not, it should!

Instead of having all the tiers have a complex arrangement of bonuses and negatives, why not make it simple. Single bonus, single negative. Easier to remember and easier for Chris.

So it'd be something like:

Ballistic: Quick firing (lowest TU's), low damage.

Laser: Accurate, low penetration

Plasma: Powerful, innaccurate.

MAG: High penetration, slow firing.

And everything else would be based on the weapon class. At present Laser and Plasma are kind of paired together (they're pretty close together) so they could be two sides of the same coin.

So a Laser carbine would have, at most, penetration a bit better than a ballistic rifle. Its still good for use against high armour enemies, but its worse at it compared to a plasma carbine, or a MAG carbine which would ignore armour on many enemies. It would be noticeably more accurate than any of them though.

Edited April 29, 2013 by Sathra

[GreySciTe]

I really like the idea of different weapon tiers have their own strengh and weaknesses that make them better in special situations even better than higher tier stuff. It increases the variety of your equipment and a hate that linear scheme of having an overall best weapontype.

About the original question. In TFTD i only had problems with ammo when i had practically lost the game anyway. Ammo was also practically infinite because you just picked the alien ammo. I also think it is interessting to decide if my guys bring the new expansive equipment to the battlefield (ground)/dogfight (air) or the old cheap one. But there is a point in the game where you are totally boned with the cheap stuff and if you ran out of the wrong resources you have lost. Of course that could be wanted. And if the ressource income is balanced that you don't have to put all of it into ammo it's also fine.

An alternative idea from me would be to produce the tier2+ ammo first in your workshop when it is new. Later there is a new building type like automated factories that produce the ammo automatically.

- when the stuff is new you have a trade-off. Do i need more ammo or the new armor?

- it is new stuff so it's interessting to play with. Later when there is routine you don't have to bother with it anymore and you don't fall back to tier 1 that easily.

- the factory has to be researched, needs time to be build, space and has a building cost(money, alloy, alenium) and a monthly cost. So there is still an investment.

[Sathra]

Interesting idea, but space in bases is limited so it would be a downside to add them in all bases. Unless you can transfer them which would make the ammo limited anyways.

With the proposed inventory/capacity change ammo becomes important not for production time or cost, but because you can carry only so much. And since you can't get ammo from the aliens, and their weapons are meant to be inaccurate for humans to use...

[zolobolo]

Plasma now requires laser tech, just a by and by.

In my mind its a unnecessary addition to weapons (yes, it is unnecessary, but not saying its unneeded) since the current schema is to have the differences in the weapon classes.

Carbines for short range but good armour penetration. Sniper for penetration and range. MG for penetration, range and power (actually, maybe have MG's have less penetration? Wouldn't be such an end all weapon that way). Rifles are the all rounder but not as good as the specialised weapons in their roles. And pistols are 1-handed, but pretty inferior to everything else but necessary for certain roles or as backup weapons.

Good point there, which is why I would leave armour penetration as well as costs money and TU wise linear, those are already established I think well enough MAG beeing the best agains armour while laser beeing weaker then plasma and so on leaving the weapons specialization intact within tiers.

If the balancing of the 3 Tiers takes too much effort it is of corse not meaningfull, but I hope the relatively easy implementation of these minor changes to the weapons.xml file can have a singifficant bonus to gamplay in itself. These are wholely different technologies which should be translated, and used to make equipment of soldiers interesting and not only a matter of money. It would be nice to avoid the routine of producing 1 or 3 weapons for each category within the new tier and move on to the next for each game. Having some personality to the weapons enables players to create their own styles beyond whether to take rocket trooper and sniper for every mission (yes for both )

Edited April 29, 2013 by zolobolo

[lemm]

Micromanaging ammunition supplies is the most boring part of the game.

If you really wanted to add something like that though, I would make it so that you're only micromanaging the latest tech level. For example, once you get all of the laser weaponry researched, then your sponsor nations, impressed by your progress, agree to waive costs for all conventional weaponry.

[TrashMan]

As long as one can mod in ammo managment and bring back the old feel I'll be happy.

However, given the engine limitations I doubt it will be doable. Making ammo non-endless should be doable, but a proper market is not.