Milestone 4.20.0 Released! (Experimental)

[Chris]

This update is also only accessible by switching to our Experimental branches (instructions on how to do so here) - although please be aware they have slower load times and worse performance than normal builds due to the extra logging they contain!

Balance Changes: 

• We've re-applied a couple of balance changes that were meant to be included in the 4.19.0 patch, but didn't actually made it in! (see below)
• Secton Psionic Triangulation ability now grants +30 Accuracy when active (previously +50).
• Automed Module now heals +5HP a turn (previously +25HP). It is therefore still excellent for healing Bleeding Wounds, but it does not make Medikits completely redundant.

Bugfixes:

• Fixed a bug where soldiers and equipment were incorrectly being recovered after losing a mission (which could cause soldiers to survive the battle despite their corpses being outside the dropship / recovery area).
• Fixed a purple error texture on the damaged state of some of the sandbags in the ATLAS Base map.

[gG-Unknown]

11 hours ago, Chris said:

Fixed a bug where soldiers and equipment were incorrectly being recovered after losing a mission (which could cause soldiers to survive the battle despite their corpses being outside the dropship / recovery area).

Can you fix the information on After-Mission briefing panel that way, it changes " Killed in  Action"  vs "Missed in  Action" accordingly ?

e.i. when soldier is left behind (dead, unconscious, whatever),  then After Mission  briefing panel  should say MISSED IN ACTION, not KILLED IN ACTION  as it is now.

Best would be, add (spawn)  a  dog-tag to the place where  soldier is turned into red pudding, so he can get properly KIA by returning his dog-tag home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_tag

All this support my previous recommendation:

KIA  - honour + xp_recycle

MIA - shame

Thanks

Edited July 28, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Bernie22405]

23 hours ago, Chris said:

 

• Automed Module now heals +5HP a turn (previously +25HP). It is therefore still excellent for healing Bleeding Wounds, but it does not make Medikits completely redundant.

 

How far will the automed heal now?  A single turn?  Two?  Three? 

 

Frankly, I do not see any reason to devote carrying capacity to it if I still have to equip my troops with medkits.  Carrying both just takes up too much capacity that could be better used with other equipment.

[Ziran]

Yeah this game is very heavy on carrying capacity. When I recruit troops I sort them by str and never recruit ones with less than 50 (ideally 60+). The only ones that can get away with 50 str are snipers. Everyone else is up front and needs things like medkits, grenades heavy armor etc which weigh a ton. 60 str is not much in this game.

[gG-Unknown]

9 hours ago, Ziran said:

Yeah this game is very heavy on carrying capacity. When I recruit troops I sort them by str and never recruit ones with less than 50 (ideally 60+). The only ones that can get away with 50 str are snipers. Everyone else is up front and needs things like medkits, grenades heavy armor etc which weigh a ton. 60 str is not much in this game.

It is called weight management.

Surprisingly modern soldiers are stressed by weight  of equipment way more than ever before.

Roman soldier   was trained to carry about 30 kilo and march about 20 km per day. Modern soldiers carry even more (long marching was reduced due to armoured carriers, or drop ships)

Your  task, as commander is select proper loadout for specific mission. for example -  For abduction mission you would carry more grenades, less ammo clips, no auto heal. no stun gun. no snipers. Becouse you need to move quickly, get high TU/dmg ratio AND do not care about overkill  drawback.

Contrary - for UFO landed mission you have plenty of time, so you can try to catch as many live aliens  as possible to harvest extra money on sales. So, stun equipment, less grenades, more shields.

That button for saving and loading setting for soldiers loadout has some reason.  Different strategies !

11 hours ago, Bernie22405 said:

 I do not see any reason to devote carrying capacity to it if I still have to equip my troops with medkits.  Carrying both just takes up too much capacity that could be better used with other equipment.

I dont think you are supposed to carry both. Certainly not on the same person.

Edited July 29, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Bernie22405]

On 7/29/2024 at 4:05 AM, gG-Unknown said:

I dont think you are supposed to carry both. Certainly not on the same person.

I thought it was my job as mission commander to decide what equipment my troops need for a mission?  Where does "supposed to" come in on that?

 

If automed is only going to heal 20% of what it used to heal, for an unspecified number of turns, then I want a medkit for the heavy healing and automed becomes a bandaid dispenser to take care of bleeders that need all their movement points that turn to not become toast.  They might still have heavy damage to heal on the next turn but at least they won't bleed out after getting out of Dodge.

[Chris]

1 hour ago, Bernie22405 said:

I thought it was my job as mission commander to decide what equipment my troops need for a mission?  Where does "supposed to" come in on that?

 

If automed is only going to heal 20% of what it used to heal, for an unspecified number of turns, then I want a medkit for the heavy healing and automed becomes a bandaid dispenser to take care of bleeders that need all their movement points that turn to not become toast.  They might still have heavy damage to heal on the next turn but at least they won't bleed out after getting out of Dodge.

Yeah, this is the idea. The automed module is valuable because it'll heal bleeding wounds immediately without costing TU (although it'll eventually heal units back to full health if you wait long enough). But you'll still want a few proper medikits around to quickly heal soldiers who have been badly hurt.

[Chris]

On 7/28/2024 at 10:17 AM, gG-Unknown said:

Can you fix the information on After-Mission briefing panel that way, it changes " Killed in  Action"  vs "Missed in  Action" accordingly ?

e.i. when soldier is left behind (dead, unconscious, whatever),  then After Mission  briefing panel  should say MISSED IN ACTION, not KILLED IN ACTION  as it is now.

Best would be, add (spawn)  a  dog-tag to the place where  soldier is turned into red pudding, so he can get properly KIA by returning his dog-tag home.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_tag

All this support my previous recommendation:

KIA  - honour + xp_recycle

MIA - shame

Thanks

Yeah, we'll get the text to show MIA when appropriate.

EDIT - actually, there's a discussion to be had about when MIA should be shown. I think if the soldier is confirmed dead then he's shown as KIA even if his body isn't recovered at the end.

[gG-Unknown]

On 7/31/2024 at 12:10 AM, Chris said:

Yeah, we'll get the text to show MIA when appropriate.

EDIT - actually, there's a discussion to be had about when MIA should be shown. I think if the soldier is confirmed dead then he's shown as KIA even if his body isn't recovered at the end.

Thanks for  consideration. Here are arguments for discussion :

MIA-KIA  is a gameplay mechanic which offers player  an option, to retrieve bodies back home for reward in form of Experienced recruit.

It is quite strong mechanic, so decision what is MIA or KIA should be crystal clear.

 KIA are all soldiers  who  are killed on successful non-Raid missions. e.i. when player owns battlefield  after tactical combat, then all  causalities are KIA.

MIA is any soldier who can not come back from a mission. e.i. any  mission when player do not own battlefield on the end of tactial combat. It doeesnt matter if he is a) just left behind  (drop ship left sooner) or b) he is dead (but could be revived by med-center if someone carry him to drop ship) or c) he is turned into red-pudding ( and no one  bring back dog-tag;). d)  all dead soldiers or left behind soldiers on a failed mission where player could own battlefield on the end, but he doesnt win. Like UFO missions.  Still MIA. Basicaly MIA means he is not  in duty but we can not make a proper burial. ( dog-tag can be burried as a token)

Why MIA - KIA is so important ?  here is serious proposal, quoting myself :

goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/index.php?/topic/39839-milestone-4-balance-feedback-thead/#comment-213928

On 6/27/2024 at 9:26 AM, gG-Unknown said:

I like soldiers are dying a lot. That gives proper desperate feeling of whole fight. The problem is, difference between veteran and new_hired soldier is too  much. Which means, people rather save scum than experience loss. Here is a better system : when trained soldier die, then a new soldier on recruit screen is added, the newly added soldier has half experience of dead  veteran. Therfore, later in game player can see quite capable recruits,  which means a snowball effect of dead veteran.

On  top, a new mechanic promoting saving bodies is introduced. Soldier who is KIA become "recycled" into better recruit (see above). Soldier MIA are not. Therfore player has gameplay reward/mechanic to bring back dead soldiers from  raid mission to  home, to keep morale high, to appear experienced recruit.

 

An  example of real current war :Soldiers are sent into suicide mission, night assault over the river. Land Area is devastated by oponent, no one come back,  no radio  response. From drones we have a proof that bodies are littered everywhere. However,  high command  mark  all of  them as  MIA. Only way how to change status to KIA is a doctor signed paper over a dead body. As result, lots of youn woman  are arranging  forced-divorce now, rather than wait 10 years when forensic labs clear things up.

e.i. MIA is shame and problem for all civilians, it lowers morale.

Edited August 1, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Bernie22405]

16 hours ago, Chris said:

Yeah, this is the idea. The automed module is valuable because it'll heal bleeding wounds immediately without costing TU (although it'll eventually heal units back to full health if you wait long enough). But you'll still want a few proper medikits around to quickly heal soldiers who have been badly hurt.

The only problem with the idea, or at least the main problem is that it's too much weight to carry both for most troops. That's problematic because  you want that immediate bleed stop, but if they have heavy damage a unit with a medkit might be too far away, so the troop ends up having to carry both.  This causes major issues with weight limitations and space limitations. You find yourself sending troops out without grenades, with less effective armor, etc.

 

So far as I remember, it was never this way in the original game, nor was it intended to be.  There the automed was seen as an upgrade to the medkit that would replace the medkit, and that's how I've used it up to this point.  In my current game I haven't reached the point of having the automed yet but, when I do, I'm going to have to think long and hard about its usefulness.  To deal with bleeding every troop would have to have one.  That may not be possible.

[gG-Unknown]

17 hours ago, Bernie22405 said:

 you want that immediate bleed stop, but if they have heavy damage a unit with a medkit might be too far away, so the troop ends up having to carry both.  This causes major issues with weight limitations and space limitations. You find yourself sending troops out without grenades, with less effective armor, etc.

Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Are you saying that you have to think what is more preferred for the mission ?

Are you saying that you can not carry all ?

Would you explain  me, what does it mean "weight management" ?

Edited August 1, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Bernie22405]

13 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Are you saying that you have to think what is more preferred for the mission ?

Are you saying that you can not carry all ?

Would you explain  me, what does it mean "weight management" ?

No, what I'm saying is that taking a piece of kit that, in the original, was an upgrade and replacement for a different piece of kit, and reducing it by 80% so that now instead of replacing the other piece of kit you have to carry both, is not an improvement for the game.

 

What's next, make the pack only hold two items so you have to choose which items are more important for that mission?  "Let's see, does this guy need one grenade and a medkit, or forget the medkit and take a smoke grenade?  Maybe a medkit and an extra mag?"

 

Reduce it by a third or by half, but 80% reduction is just too much.  If it were that much overpowered from the beginning there'd be a long history of players complaining about it.  There aren't any.

Edited August 1, 2024 by Bernie22405

[Nils]

13 hours ago, Bernie22405 said:

Reduce it by a third or by half, but 80% reduction is just too much.  If it were that much overpowered from the beginning there'd be a long history of players complaining about it.  There aren't any.

This. Or alternativly make it 2 research steps. The first research is the improved medkit. The later research is the automated medkit, but with its full potential.

[gG-Unknown]

14 hours ago, Bernie22405 said:

 a piece of kit that, in the original, was an upgrade and replacement for a different piece of kit, and reducing it by 80% so that now instead of replacing the other piece of kit you have to carry both, is not an improvement for the game.

So you refused to answear to any of my 3 questions, but you are keep on piling your emotions.

Here is one for  free :  Medkit has  an upgrade. It is called Advanced medkit.

[Bernie22405]

On 8/2/2024 at 7:36 AM, gG-Unknown said:

So you refused to answear to any of my 3 questions, but you are keep on piling your emotions.

Here is one for  free :  Medkit has  an upgrade. It is called Advanced medkit.

My sincere apologies!  Which part of "No, what I'm saying is..." did you not understand to be a response to you?  I'll try to rephrase it for you.

[Bernie22405]

On 8/2/2024 at 7:07 AM, Nils said:

This. Or alternativly make it 2 research steps. The first research is the improved medkit. The later research is the automated medkit, but with its full potential.

This is how it has always worked in the game, at least in how I play.  Reducing the automed by 80% makes about as much sense as taking any of the top weapons and reducing them by 80%

[Chris]

On 8/3/2024 at 4:01 PM, Bernie22405 said:

This is how it has always worked in the game, at least in how I play.  Reducing the automed by 80% makes about as much sense as taking any of the top weapons and reducing them by 80%

I don't really agree. The Advanced Medikit is the improved version of the Medikit, and it's better for full healing. The Automed Unit didn't exist in the first game and is designed to stop units bleeding out - very frequently a unit takes a hit and just doesn't have enough TU to get to a medikit before they die from bleeding wounds. That won't happen if you have an Automed Unit, and if your soldier is only lightly wounded you can just let the regeneration heal them. 

In its previous incarnation the Advanced Medikit was pointless, because the Automed Unit was much better in basically every way. Reducing it to 15HP of regeneration still means nobody would ever use the Medikit, because it'll still heal pretty much any wound in 3-4 turns. Is the fundamental issue here is you don't want to have to carry both items, but you want the benefits of both?

Reducing a gun's damage by 80% would make it totally pointless, but it's not like the Automed unit doesn't still have a role.

[Bernie22405]

On 8/4/2024 at 7:36 PM, Chris said:

Reducing a gun's damage by 80% would make it totally pointless, but it's not like the Automed unit doesn't still have a role.

"Reducing a gun's damage by 80% wouldn't be like it doesn't still have a role."

 

Does that sound right to you?  It doesn't to me, not any more than reducing the automed by 80% does.  Look, I'm willing to concede that I may be misremembering how it used to be, confusing the advanced medkit with the automed (I'm gonna have to dig out the old games and fire up one of my workstations that's old enough to replay them), but I'm not arguing that the automed should be fully restored to what it was either.  I just think an 80% reduction is too much.  That's not tweaking the game, that's taking a chainsaw to the item.  Reduce it by 40% instead, see how it goes and what it does to the balance.  Right now, I've stopped playing because I don't want to have to carry both the automed and the medkit.  In effect, this change is a "deal breaker" for me.  That may not mean anything to you, I'm one player, one customer out of potentially thousands, but will I be the only one?

 

Anyway, best of luck to you with the game, I'm out and it's getting uninstalled because it's not something I enjoy anymore.

[Skitso]

6 hours ago, Bernie22405 said:

"Reducing a gun's damage by 80% wouldn't be like it doesn't still have a role."

 

Does that sound right to you?  It doesn't to me, not any more than reducing the automed by 80% does.  Look, I'm willing to concede that I may be misremembering how it used to be, confusing the advanced medkit with the automed (I'm gonna have to dig out the old games and fire up one of my workstations that's old enough to replay them), but I'm not arguing that the automed should be fully restored to what it was either.  I just think an 80% reduction is too much.  That's not tweaking the game, that's taking a chainsaw to the item.  Reduce it by 40% instead, see how it goes and what it does to the balance.  Right now, I've stopped playing because I don't want to have to carry both the automed and the medkit.  In effect, this change is a "deal breaker" for me.  That may not mean anything to you, I'm one player, one customer out of potentially thousands, but will I be the only one?

 

Anyway, best of luck to you with the game, I'm out and it's getting uninstalled because it's not something I enjoy anymore.

Haha!

 

[Chris]

On 8/6/2024 at 11:12 PM, Bernie22405 said:

"Reducing a gun's damage by 80% wouldn't be like it doesn't still have a role."

 

Does that sound right to you?  It doesn't to me, not any more than reducing the automed by 80% does.  Look, I'm willing to concede that I may be misremembering how it used to be, confusing the advanced medkit with the automed (I'm gonna have to dig out the old games and fire up one of my workstations that's old enough to replay them), but I'm not arguing that the automed should be fully restored to what it was either.  I just think an 80% reduction is too much.  That's not tweaking the game, that's taking a chainsaw to the item.  Reduce it by 40% instead, see how it goes and what it does to the balance.  Right now, I've stopped playing because I don't want to have to carry both the automed and the medkit.  In effect, this change is a "deal breaker" for me.  That may not mean anything to you, I'm one player, one customer out of potentially thousands, but will I be the only one?

 

Anyway, best of luck to you with the game, I'm out and it's getting uninstalled because it's not something I enjoy anymore.

I'm sorry to hear that's a dealbreaker for you. But if the assault rifle was so deadly at both long range and midrange that it made the sniper rifle completely redundant, I'd have to nerf the assault rifle so it was mostly a midrange weapon as was intended - even if it led to some players being annoyed that they would now need use a mix of assault rifles and sniper rifles in their team, and made them hate the game (and some would, because people rarely like having overpowered things taken away).

The same applies here. I hope you come back and enjoy the final version of the game, but I can't leave the game balance broken simply because you want an item that provides complete protection from bleeding wounds AND heals so well it makes the Medikit completely redundant. Surely the gameplay can't be that atrocious without having regenerating soldiers, else you'd never have played far enough into the game to get the Automed Unit in the first place?

[Nils]

2 hours ago, Chris said:

I'm sorry to hear that's a dealbreaker for you. But if the assault rifle was so deadly at both long range and midrange that it made the sniper rifle completely redundant, I'd have to nerf the assault rifle so it was mostly a midrange weapon as was intended - even if it led to some players being annoyed that they would now need use a mix of assault rifles and sniper rifles in their team, and made them hate the game (and some would, because people rarely like having overpowered things taken away).

The same applies here. I hope you come back and enjoy the final version of the game, but I can't leave the game balance broken simply because you want an item that provides complete protection from bleeding wounds AND heals so well it makes the Medikit completely redundant. Surely the gameplay can't be that atrocious without having regenerating soldiers, else you'd never have played far enough into the game to get the Automed Unit in the first place?

In the end it is your game and you had some ideas behind every item. If the automated kit was never ment to be for heal and just for making sure none of your soldiers dies from bleeding its perfectly fine.  Keep on going with the good work!

[Bernie22405]

On 8/12/2024 at 9:02 AM, Chris said:

but I can't leave the game balance broken simply because you want an item that provides complete protection from bleeding wounds AND heals so well it makes the Medikit completely redundant.

You're putting a spin on this that is not at all what I said, Chris.  But that's okay, your game, your forums, your rules and I didn't expect it would be otherwise.

 

My complaint was never anything but that you reduced the effectiveness by too huge an amount all at once.  80%, Chris, you reduced it by 80% and my complaint was that this was too much, that maybe 40% would be better and that fine-tuning could happen from there.  That would give players an easier choice between having to carry both or having to give up the effects of one in favor of the other.  Since the player is already very limited in what space they have and how much weight they can carry (a system that really needs some going over if you want something else to fiddle around with since it's pointless to hire any soldier with under 50-55 strength) carrying both is generally out of the question.  IMHO, this 80% reduction borked the whole healing system and it's pointless to continue playing.

 

Anyway, I only stopped in to see how distorted my comments would be portrayed here.  Not too badly to be honest, but not great either.

 

Have a great one and, no, I have no intention of ever playing the game again, nor any others from this company that you've had a hand in.  I think you're too quick to see something that you think is having a negative effect on gameplay and then go in not with a scalpel to make the fine adjustments needed, but with a machete in a jungle clearing operation.  You're probably a fine person though, someone I'd share a coffee and an afternoon with discussing software projects we've each worked on and part company with a handshake.

[Bernie22405]

On 8/7/2024 at 1:08 AM, Skitso said:

Haha!

 

Exactly the level of maturity I expected of you, Skitso.  

[Skitso]

2 hours ago, Bernie22405 said:

Exactly the level of maturity I expected of you, Skitso.  

Yeah, and it warms my heart to see you've matured too, with having PMS and everything. Have a nice one, go touch some grass.

[Chris]

On 8/16/2024 at 2:57 AM, Bernie22405 said:

You're putting a spin on this that is not at all what I said, Chris.  But that's okay, your game, your forums, your rules and I didn't expect it would be otherwise.

 

My complaint was never anything but that you reduced the effectiveness by too huge an amount all at once.  80%, Chris, you reduced it by 80% and my complaint was that this was too much, that maybe 40% would be better and that fine-tuning could happen from there.  That would give players an easier choice between having to carry both or having to give up the effects of one in favor of the other.  Since the player is already very limited in what space they have and how much weight they can carry (a system that really needs some going over if you want something else to fiddle around with since it's pointless to hire any soldier with under 50-55 strength) carrying both is generally out of the question.  IMHO, this 80% reduction borked the whole healing system and it's pointless to continue playing.

 

Anyway, I only stopped in to see how distorted my comments would be portrayed here.  Not too badly to be honest, but not great either.

 

Have a great one and, no, I have no intention of ever playing the game again, nor any others from this company that you've had a hand in.  I think you're too quick to see something that you think is having a negative effect on gameplay and then go in not with a scalpel to make the fine adjustments needed, but with a machete in a jungle clearing operation.  You're probably a fine person though, someone I'd share a coffee and an afternoon with discussing software projects we've each worked on and part company with a handshake.

There isn't any middle ground between carrying one item or carrying two items, though, as it's not possible to carry 1.5 items. You either carry one or two items. That's pretty much the crux of my point - you're asking me to pull the wrong design lever here by increasing the regeneration amount.

The reason why I'm trying to drill down into why you want the Automed Unit to have the functionality of two items is because I suspect the actual fix for this issue (if this actually does end up being an issue) is to reduce the weight of the Automed Unit now it has reduced functionality, making it easier to carry the two items if you do want both bits of functionality. Not going back to having one item that fills two roles really well and one item that is totally irrelevant, as that setup doesn't actually give the player a choice to make.

However, you seem very much against the idea of having to carry two items, and I was trying to understand whether it was an issue with not having the capacity to carry two items or whether it's because you just genuinely found the concept of there being two items ridiculous on a fundamental level. From your previous posts, it largely seemed like the latter.

Best of luck in future anyway.