Milestone 2 (Prototype 2) - Balance Discussion

[SoftwareSimian]

Wave of destroyers appear around day 75 (had 3 at once near my base). Just got my 3rd Angel built, got one Destroyer shot down (at the cost of one of my interceptors) but can't touch the other two. Seems a very sharp increase in difficulty that wasn't there in previous versions of the game.

[Grobobobo]

9 hours ago, SoftwareSimian said:

Wave of destroyers appear around day 75 (had 3 at once near my base). Just got my 3rd Angel built, got one Destroyer shot down (at the cost of one of my interceptors) but can't touch the other two. Seems a very sharp increase in difficulty that wasn't there in previous versions of the game.

What loadouts did you use that a single destroyer took out 2 out of 3 of your aircraft?

[SoftwareSimian]

6 hours ago, Grobobobo said:

What loadouts did you use that a single destroyer took out 2 out of 3 of your aircraft?

The destroyer took out 1/3 of my aircraft. Loadout was I think Autocannon + Missile + Armor + Fuelpod. I'd only just managed to build my 3rd aircraft a few days earlier, without that I would have had no hope of downing any of the Destroyers.

I just found it odd that a Destroyer was my second UFO crashsite, before I'd even seen a Scout (shot the first one down nearly a month later).

[Grobobobo]

2 hours ago, SoftwareSimian said:

The destroyer took out 1/3 of my aircraft. Loadout was I think Autocannon + Missile + Armor + Fuelpod. I'd only just managed to build my 3rd aircraft a few days earlier, without that I would have had no hope of downing any of the Destroyers.

I just found it odd that a Destroyer was my second UFO crashsite, before I'd even seen a Scout (shot the first one down nearly a month later).

Huh, that's weird, i think you're supposed to get probes > scouts > destroyers > observers. I think day 70 sounds about right for the destroyer to start appearing though. For loadouts, try double torpedo + missile/torpedo + cannon on one plane, and double autocannon on the other two, should work a lot better.

[Dren608]

On 10/7/2023 at 12:26 PM, Grobobobo said:

Huh, that's weird, i think you're supposed to get probes > scouts > destroyers > observers. I think day 70 sounds about right for the destroyer to start appearing though. For loadouts, try double torpedo + missile/torpedo + cannon on one plane, and double autocannon on the other two, should work a lot better.

Thing is you have to remember to build all that as we have to build each Missile/Torpedo individually now

Edited October 9, 2023 by Dren608
spelling

[Grobobobo]

Of course, I'm fully aware of that.

[Skitso]

Now that the cleaner stats have been nerfed, I very rarely lose any soldiers against them. Now that the first month and a half is so easy, it makes it possible to build so experienced and strong squad that when the more competent enemies start to arrive, even they can't match my strong team and also start to also feel too easy. I could just run through the missions without much strategic thinking, which became boring quite fast.

I played Commander ironman with damage numbers and health disabled. Also, didn't build a training center as I feel it's OP.

Edit: not commander, but veteran.

Edited November 19, 2023 by Skitso

[Chris]

The Cleaner stats needed nerfing to keep the progression logical, so the two options to fix that are a consistent uplift of all alien accuracy values by approximately 10%, or specifically increasing the Commander difficulty Accuracy modifier. Depends how people are finding Soldier and Veteran really.

[bonerstorm]

Pardon the x-post - I didn't realize this thread was here:

I'm the guy who made some very pointed and bitchy commentary in the OG feedback thread for Milestone 1. The one with the "best base layout" which I used again and... I stand by it being optimal in this build, subject to taste.

Just wanted to drop by and say that all of my gripes have been addressed (tweak to Alenium Generators much appreciated! I still won't buy it myself tho...). Milestone 2 is worlds better in terms of balance than Milestone 1. The one whinge I have is that money is a little light, I'm guessing partly because of the effective removal of corpses as a source of income, since you need them for autopsies. I found myself swimming in alenium and alloys, but no money for project to use them on... I ended up selling a bunch, but it didn't quite close the gap. Earlier versions, while being much more difficult, had me swimming in cash if I fought often enough.

Suggestion: Please just convert any item that cannot be used for research/engineering directly into cash. Making the player go into a menu to manually sell everything - not knowing which may be important - is super annoying.

Some might say that this build's too easy - with respect, I cordially invite them to eat my entire anus. It's easy if you're running a mega-optimized strategy, but that's how Soldier difficulty should be --> hard for nomies, easy for experienced players. I'm playing on Solder, BTW, because I couldn't possibly be arsed to play a more difficult setting while bug-hunting. Way too much effort.

[bonerstorm]

Just completed a run on 2.11. Less buggy this time. Actually played Veteran too.

Air combat is still fairly balanced. Money was less of a concern as I learned to discard my X1 instincts and sell alloys/alenium to supplement the budget. 

Quick suggestions:

1. Remove game-over condition for budget over-runs (c'mon... what government agency hasn't gone over budget 2 months in a row? ) - but seriously later-game play gets incredibly expensive and deficits will almost certainly exceed $1/2M per month
2. Speed up construction of radars - they're a crazy expensive investment and the delay in building them really hampers mid-game recovery from high panic in non-covered regions
3. Halve the cost of Quantum Array or make it do something else that's worthwhile - as it stands, knowing ships/missions simply isn't worth $1M
4. Have the game prioritize Terrorize missions for high-panic areas, as this gives the player more non-ship combat opportunities and a way to reduce panic in places where there isn't radar coverage

[bonerstorm]

Random: is there an extra bonus for capturing a cleaner leader alive? Honestly, for the incredible hassle of that mission, we deserve more than the $20k we get for selling him (the same for any captured enemy). And I don't think any extra cleaner HQ countdown is worth that squeeze. He should be at least worth $50k, if not $100k.

Hot tip to any relative newbies who happen on the thread: Cleaner missions where reinforcements come in get a LOT easier when you liberally use grenades. I just turned 5 of them into chunky salsa with just one pineapple.

[bonerstorm]

"Optimal" strategy so far seems to be close to the previous build: (my opinion, please feel free to disagree - I'd love to be shown wrong and do better)

First Month: Northeast Africa seems to be the best place to start, but it's really up to taste. Build 1 radar, 1 lab, 1 living quarters, 1 med center, 2 training centers, 1 hangar. Fill lab as soon as it's finished. Finish Xenobiology and cleaner interrogation for for $$$.

Second Month: Immediately build 1 interceptor, 1 lab, 1 workshop. Research both Plot branches - the first one ??? and (if you're lucky and get a live mentarch) Alien Origins in the same month. Get as much cash as possible from Cleaner missions and hold off on Cleaner HQ until day 60, to collect the bonus before the end of the month.

Third Month: Immediately build fourth lab, fourth living quarters and third workshop. If you've got half a mil to spare, build a third interceptor. If you've got a mil, build a new base and radar.

After that: If you follow my build layout, you have room for exactly 23 soldiers in your main base and enough training space for all of them. Work towards building three bases covering as much of all regions as possible with 2 basic interceptors each. After that, build three advanced interceptors at your main base and transfer 1 basic interceptor each to your secondary bases. I find that a wing of 3 interceptors with 1 laser cannon and 2x (non-upgraded!) sidewinders can handle anything in the game so far (advanced interceptors with 2x gauss and 1x reinforced are practically invincible). The secondary bases either need 2-3 upgraded defense batteries or 10x soldiers each plus 6 sentry turrets (the former is cheaper but the latter is safer - I'm testing the former now, but eventually in the final release I anticipate needing soldiers in every base EXCEPT for ones that don't have hangars).

The reason why those 2 extra squadrons are vital is that more UFO's downed means more money and, if you're not downing them in regions you didn't start in, then it becomes harder to afford those bases later.

Most upgrades are juice not worth the squeeze, especially early/mid armor and base upgrades (except for Surgical). Alenium Generators is better, but still not optimal. For half a dozen runs now, I've completely ignored warden/guardian armor and only got exosuits for my assault guys and stalkers for my snipers around day 200, sticking with heavy kevlar the entire rest of the game. The fact is that keeping your guys alive isn't worth the opportunity cost of doing almost anything else.

I've tested a number of different squad layouts and I find the best is 3x shotty, 3x rifle (with heavy armor), 3x sniper. After getting the advanced dropship, add 2x MARS and 1x heavy (because there are some enemies that only a full machinegun barrage can handle. By day 200, my shottys shift straight from accelerated to gauss and my heavy/snipers are on laser (because the cost of reloading/holding-ammo aren't worth the extra damage - also Chris said something before about lasers having half recoil in the new update). I made grenadiers work for me in earlier versions, but I concede now that they're suboptimal. Shields... I really can't think of a use for these guys at all unless you're playing on Rookie.

But here's the difference between now and what I said in Milestone 1: you don't actually have to play "optimized" to keep up with the game and have fun. The problems with massive panic accumulation with non-covered regions is no longer so crippling that it's impossible to advance into the lategame without addressing them immediately.

[bonerstorm]

On 10/2/2023 at 3:46 PM, Grobobobo said:

15% range is pretty useless, the issue with angels isn't range but speed

Agreed. I was about to say this is unrealistic, but - upon googling - found out I was totally wrong. Standard fuel tanks on an F-16 are 18% of internal fuel per matching under-wing hardpoint plus 9% for the one fuselage hardpoint, which presumably impacts fuel economy to the point where 15% is frankly generous - especially considering the IRL mig-25 has half the operational range of the in-game x-25.

Apparently English-language information on the mig-25's external fuel storage isn't very plentiful, but they're practically similar jets. The recon variant apparently equipped a 1,400 gallon centerline tank, which would have increased fuel capacity by 4,239kg (28.41%) - more than twice the standard combat payload (ouch!).

 

What is unrealistic @Chris are the limits in general (and the speed is definitely nerfed from IRL). Sorry to text-wall you but - no presh - I really hope you consider this or pass this along to whoever's thinking air combat over:

When in doubt about game mechanics, I say to go with reality and then tweak OPFOR for balance from there.

Mig-25's have 4 under-wing hardpoints and no internal autocannon, so there should be two slots for weapons/fuel plus a third slot only for armor and MAYBE a fourth slot for a fuselage-mounted fuel tank (perhaps of various sizes).

Foxbats don't have a maximum take-off weight, their top cruising speed with 4x 1,000lb R-40 missiles is 2,319.12kph, top operational speed (again: kitted-out) is 3,494kph and their top cruising speed with no payload is 2,981.5kph. It can go past Mach 3 in a pinch, but that bricks the engine.

• A loaded M61A1 autocannon (internal on the F-16) weighs 377kg.
• The Soviet equivalent which would make the most sense for an X-25 weapon mount (SPPU-6 gun pod with GSh-6-23 autocannon) weighs 525kg.
• The titanium armor on an A-10 warthog weighs 540kg.
• Sidewinders weigh 85.3kg and have a 9.4kg payload - so two would weigh 170.6kg
• R-40 missiles (standard for foxbats) weigh 475kg (950kg for 2x) and have a maximum 100kg warhead.
• R-60 Vympel missiles (lightweight alternative) weigh 43.5kg (2x 87kg) and have a 3kg warhead.
• Modern R-73 missiles weigh 105kg and have a 7.4kg warhead.
• KH-31 supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles (the closest "torpedo" equivalent for Soviet jets) weigh 610kg (1220kg for 2x) and have a 94kg armor-penetrating shaped-charge warhead.

Random thought #1: I believe that - for weight balance reasons - it doesn't make sense to only have an odd number of "torpedoes" unless you're sticking one on the fuselage (maybe that should go in the "fuel tank slot" I suggested earlier).

So here's my dangerous and possibly heretical take: remove all limits on weight, but have that impact speed instead. Make the readout for speed in the hangar show green for fast and red for slow (like too slow to catch a Scout). As fuel tanks are used up and missiles fired, reduce weight and increase speed/range accordingly.

Start with 2,981.5kph as a baseline, then 2,319.12kph for a 1,900kg payload and work out the math from there.

Have the slots go:
"Inner Hardpoints" - "Outer Hardpoints" - "Armor" - "Fuselage Hardpoint"

Hardpoint options: (standard speed at weight 20)

Light Missile 2x - Weight 2 - standard damage

Heavy Missile 2x - Weight 5 - ?10x? missile damage

Dual Autocannon Pods - Weight 5

Torpedo 1x (fuselage only) Weight 8 - 10x missile damage plus armor penetration 

Laser Cannon (fuselage only) - Weight 7

Fuel Wing Drop-tank 2x - Weight 20 - +15% fuel

Light Ventral Drop-Tank - Weight 10 - +7.5% fuel

Medium Ventral Drop-Tank - Weight 18 - +12% fuel

Heavy Ventral Drop-Tank - Weight 42 - +28% fuel

Ablative Armor - Weight 5 (perhaps allow scaling up to a certain point?)

 

HOW ABOUT THIS: What if the drop-tanks allowed you to boost thrust by 50% until they run out instead of giving more range? You mentioned toying with the idea of adding an option to do so. Like @Grobobobo said, that's what we really want. I'm not an aviator, but I believe this should be in line with the MIG-25's capabilities.

And let's say every interceptor with something mounted on the fuselage hardpoint (like a fuel tank the player - for whatever reason - clicked red so it wouldn't drop in combat) would prevent dodge-rolls.

On 10/3/2023 at 4:05 AM, Grobobobo said:

I doubt sacrificing a weapon slot for armor is ever going to be worth it, even with better values.

On 10/2/2023 at 6:41 PM, Chris said:

Different style of play, I think. If your interceptors are engaged in constant combat, especially with autocannons, then their health is going to inevitably wear down faster than repairs over time because - no matter how well you dodge - you're still going to get dinged at point-blank by some UFO's.

Edited November 22, 2023 by bonerstorm

[bonerstorm]

On 10/7/2023 at 10:58 AM, SoftwareSimian said:

The destroyer took out 1/3 of my aircraft. Loadout was I think Autocannon + Missile + Armor + Fuelpod. I'd only just managed to build my 3rd aircraft a few days earlier, without that I would have had no hope of downing any of the Destroyers.

I just found it odd that a Destroyer was my second UFO crashsite, before I'd even seen a Scout (shot the first one down nearly a month later).

I've actually downed many destroyers with just two x-25's with that loadout.

What you need to do is set your fighters up on opposite sides of the destroyer. Whichever one it turns its main gun towards, send it off at a 90-degree angle with afterburners on while the other hits it in the side and keeps side-rolling to stay in the blind spot. The targeted interceptor will be able to continue dodging the main-gun shots as long as you keep the angle squared. By the time it's remotely close to danger, the other interceptor will have filleted the alien SOB.

It works best with 3 fighters and lasers instead of autocannons, but you'll still take it down with minimal damage.

[Chris]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:19 PM, bonerstorm said:

Just completed a run on 2.11. Less buggy this time. Actually played Veteran too.

Air combat is still fairly balanced. Money was less of a concern as I learned to discard my X1 instincts and sell alloys/alenium to supplement the budget. 

Quick suggestions:

1. Remove game-over condition for budget over-runs (c'mon... what government agency hasn't gone over budget 2 months in a row? ) - but seriously later-game play gets incredibly expensive and deficits will almost certainly exceed $1/2M per month
2. Speed up construction of radars - they're a crazy expensive investment and the delay in building them really hampers mid-game recovery from high panic in non-covered regions
3. Halve the cost of Quantum Array or make it do something else that's worthwhile - as it stands, knowing ships/missions simply isn't worth $1M
4. Have the game prioritize Terrorize missions for high-panic areas, as this gives the player more non-ship combat opportunities and a way to reduce panic in places where there isn't radar coverage

Thanks for the assorted feedback. I'm glad you're enjoying the updated balance.

You've mentioned a few interesting things which I might patch before we release Milestone 2. I think you're probably right about the Quantum Array cost and the fact Cleaner Leaders should probably give more monetary reward (they do give more HQ advancement).

I think having Terror mission prioritise high-terror areas is an interesting idea and I'll think about that some more.

[bonerstorm]

4 hours ago, Chris said:

I think having Terror mission prioritise high-terror areas is an interesting idea and I'll think about that some more.

Great! This also addresses a whinge - not exactly a gripe - that I didn't mention: the midgame is certainly lacking in ground missions independent of downed UFO's.

If you want to reward multiple playstyles, then it makes sense to give alternatives for reducing panic and getting loot other than prioritizing air combat over everything else in the midgame. For instance, Quantum Arrays automatically pinpointing landed UFO's outside of radar range would be a big help to offering more combat opportunities and justifying the cost.

[Skitso]

2 hours ago, bonerstorm said:

For instance, Quantum Arrays automatically pinpointing landed UFO's outside of radar range would be a big help to offering more combat opportunities and justifying the cost.

Good idea! Quantum Array has never felt like it's worth the money, even if it cost considerably less. That kind of improvement could make it much more desireable. It could also extend all radar ranges by 10% or something.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Skitso

[bonerstorm]

Random:

1. There shouldn't be "empty" techs that only give flavor text. It's a waste of the player's time and encourages a weird behavior when powergaming where we intentionally do not research many techs to maximize money. Every plot tech should involve at least a modest funding increase. The Cyberdrone tech stands out in particular: make it take 5 times as long for all I care, but give us a modest 
2. Hit chance for rifle burst-fire is ridiculously low
3. TRIGGER WARNING (Realism): I would really love love love to have a button to check in the final product which... erm... doesn't result in half of my soldiers being women (especially the one with the biggest strength score hip-firing an LMG like Jesse Ventura - EDIT: actually John Basilone). Like a 10-20% ratio I'd be fine with. Or a setting where they have a penalty to strength/HP but a bonus to reflex/accuracy (which would seem reasonable as the kind of women who would make it into an elite unit would be obsessive trainers). Just saying, it breaks immersion. Ideally both. Like the OG Mount and Blade "historical sexism" button.
4. Turn all modules into checkboxes. Maybe balance by setting a limit on how many at once? Or a penalty for too many?

Edited November 24, 2023 by bonerstorm

[Skitso]

@Chris, on v2.15 the money seems to be pretty much on point at least for the first 2 months. Alloy drop rates on the other hand still need some tweaking. That, or Wardens and accelerated weapons need to require a bit more alloys to manufacture. With current drop rates, to require any thought process, Warden manufacturing should cost at least 6 alloys. Accelerated weapons should each require 2 alloys more. Otherwise, alloys are not restricting manufacture at all.

At day 40 I've completed the ATLAS base, one abduction mission with 7 rescued tubes, two or three Cleaner missions and one scout crash site. On top of that, I've downed two probes. With the loot from those, I've built 6 Warden armors, 2 accelerated pistols, 2 accelerated shotguns, 4 accelerated rifles, one accelerated MG and accelerated sniper.

 

EDIT: ok, upgrading aircraft guns to accelerated is 10 alloys each, which I can't have immediately to all my three interceptors at day 65, so that's good. I like that I need to work a bit to earn the upgrades.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Skitso

[Belmakor]

Firstly Chris, well done on X2.  It's such an improvement over X1 that I will definitely finish it (I got bored with map repetition on X1 before completion). 

 

To Improve

- base defence, you should be able to set up your troops in any spot, not just the elevator shaft...  its like the aliens had full control of my base and it was me assaulting, not them!  

- better yet.  give the player the first turn (but without any aliens on the map) so that the player can make some traps or kill zones (with C4).  For flavour, you could use the reverse of the Abduction tubes on T1 so that the player can see the Aliens teleporting in.

- grenades should shred armour.  They feel pretty pointless currently (and considering they destroy equipment).  Shouldn't that be their main purpose?
- The demo charge should be the number 1 way to clear turrets but currently does things like 5 damage.   If your worried about the balance of that make its range less so that it becomes more of a tool for Assault and less like a grenade.

- could we have 100% accuracy overflow into increased damage?  High-accurate soldiers, which are more experienced but still can't make more shots than the rookie.., should be making things like head-shots and so more lethal.  Having a cleaner survive a 100% accuracy sniper shot half the time just feels wrong.  This would also give you some more stats to give things like Sebilians (which have multiple organs, and so could negate any overdamage). 

- increase laser rifle to 6 bullets not 5 so it can make two burst shots with a clip.  increase laser pistol to 6 too. 

- increase C4 damage to 3 tiles up from 2.  Feels weaker than grenades just now. 

 

Balance (Soldier Difficulty)

- It's incredibly unfair on the standard difficulty to have a base invasion before day 100.  This is only about 20 days after you first start seeing medium UFOs. I hadn't even launched interceptors in the previous 10 days as I only had 1 (and 1 can't tackle a medium).  So I don't know how they found my base.

- With 16 soldiers and the handicap of starting in the elevator shaft, I got absolutely destroyed by the medium alien force (no missile battery by this point). 

- The white sphere alien (not sure what its called) is pretty much unkillable because you can't shred its armour.  They are so tough that it's going to take multiple turns of multiple soldiers shooting at them and every turn they get they pretty much kill one of your guys.  I had one shrug off 2 grenades, 2 grenade launchers, 2 laser shotgun blasts and 2 rifle shots without even going to half-health!?

- The scout probe combo defeats two interceptors on auto-result.  Seems wrong.  Sidewinders feel super weak.  4 of them don't even do half damage to a scout?  Shouldn't that be the match-up which we win but with just survivable damage?

- the cleaner sub-machine gun has the same range as a rifle?  Often I'm being hit by cleaners using a sub machine gun at yellow range whereas even my veteran soldiers can't hit them reliably with rifles.  Make the sub-machine gun a tad lighter (10 instead of 12) but shorter range (15 as opposed to 20 tiles)  Make it more accurate at burst fire and a 5 bullet spread.  Also becomes useful as a secondary weapon for soldiers. 

- mesmerised units should not be mesmerised once you kill the alien that did the deed.   Also how come a single unit can mesmerise like 3 of my team in one turn?  If there are like 5 of those (like on a recent base invasion mission) aliens then your squad becomes useless.  

- I'm really short on cash by day 100.  Can't afford to build any Angel (I'm only just now able to afford to build my third interceptor).  I have 8 soldiers armed with lasers and that's it at this point.  I'm struggling to shoot down medium UFOs and my base just got invaded. 

 

 

Quality of Life Improvements

- Could the storeroom menu tell us what items are no longer needed?  Like once we have done an autopsy the corpses are no longer required?  Could we have an auto-sell button in the menu that just allows any future items that fit that category to be auto-sold (like cleaner weapons and so on)

- On abduction missions if you kill all enemies with 3 turns spare the mission should just end with full success (you can bound across the map no problem so its just a bit of a boring to have to do it).  Obviously within 3 turns it might not be possible to rescue all and so there should be a limit here. 
- there is no turn indicator that I could see on the tactical map?  
- some sort of indicator on the soldier profile that they have breathing apparatus would be useful so you don't need to remember or check inventory.
- estimated arrival time on the geoscape for both interceptors and dropship (so you know if its going to be a night mission)

- There is so much research that I'm having to make real choices about what to focus on next.  Almost too many actually.  Are autopsies still required if you have captured that alien and interrogated?  If not can they just be autocompleted?

- could we have some sort of damage estimate or indicator when we hover over Aliens?  "The Last Spell" has the best implementation of this i've seen for a turn-based game.  It feels like guesswork right now and not in a good way.  I want to know if it should be my sniper making the kill or my pistol guy.  

 

Bugs:

- hevy smoke didn't create smoke when it hit either the reactor or the general in main cleaner base mission (not sure exactly who it hit but it disappeared)

- living quarters have a wall halfway down them which means you can't traverse them. It would be possible to have a base that you can't get across if you build them vertically. 

[Komandos]

20 hours ago, Skitso said:

Alloy drop rates on the other hand still need some tweaking. That, or Wardens and accelerated weapons need to require a bit more alloys to manufacture. With current drop rates, to require any thought process, Warden manufacturing should cost at least 6 alloys. Accelerated weapons should each require 2 alloys more. Otherwise, alloys are not restricting manufacture at all.

The problem is not the number of alloys. The problem is as follows: the rapid production of new technologies (weapons, armor); the small size of the tactical group (9 soldiers); the almost complete absence of losses of armor and weapons on the battlefield. As a result: you can provide a group of 9 soldiers very quickly and for a very long time.

For comparison:

In the UFO game:2 the number of alloys was very large (there was never a shortage of alloys). However, the average loss of soldiers in each battle was 9 soldiers (difficult level, beginning and middle of the game). Along with the soldiers, the player lost armor and often weapons. Total: we had to constantly produce 9 sets of armor and several sets of new weapons for each battle.

[Skitso]

I've now played until day 90 and just had the lasers unlocked. I still have the same issue with alloys (and alenium at this point too) as before. I could manufacture 3 laser pistols, 4 laser rifles, 2 laser shotguns, one laser sniper and one laser MG and I had over 100 pieces of alloys and alenium left.

And I haven't even had a good run; I've had lots of deaths so I needed to manufacture maybe six extra wardens, skipped many crash sites, missed at least one abduction mission etc, so I could have had a lot more alloys and alenium... 

[Belmakor]

3 minutes ago, Skitso said:

I've now played until day 90 and just had the lasers unlocked. I still have the same issue with alloys (and alenium at this point too) as before. I could manufacture 3 laser pistols, 4 laser rifles, 2 laser shotguns, one laser sniper and one laser MG and I had over 100 pieces of alloys and alenium left.

And I haven't even had a good run; I've had lots of deaths so I needed to manufacture maybe six extra wardens, skipped many crash sites, missed at least one abduction mission etc, so I could have had a lot more alloys and alenium... 

It varies by run then.  I'm on day 110 and I don't have any alenium (plenty of alloys).  I think I have at most gained 100 alenium so far.  I can't even buy a second Mark II Interceptor or upgrade any aircraft weapons.  The only thing I missed was one medium UFO and an observer (nothing I had could shoot the observer down).

[ovoron]

On 12/2/2023 at 2:54 PM, Belmakor said:

Balance (Soldier Difficulty)

- It's incredibly unfair on the standard difficulty to have a base invasion before day 100.  This is only about 20 days after you first start seeing medium UFOs. I hadn't even launched interceptors in the previous 10 days as I only had 1 (and 1 can't tackle a medium).  So I don't know how they found my base.

- With 16 soldiers and the handicap of starting in the elevator shaft, I got absolutely destroyed by the medium alien force (no missile battery by this point).

My experience on Commander has been the opposite.

 

My main force was en route to a mission, so I only had 7 soldiers (obviously the worst ones) in my base, so the best gear was not present either. I was armed with 5 Cleaner rifles and the rest were ballistics.

 

Invaders consisted of 20 of Mantids/Reapers. All I did was camp the door in the very same room you start in, with 1 soldier sent to the next room to open the door to the hangar.

 

I think I got shot a grand total of once, the rest died to either the "door opener" strategy or reaction fire.

 

Reaper AI is completely braindead, and the usual aliens aren't smart either, I had 1 Reaper simply walk BETWEEN my soldiers, then past them, only to ultimately stop near the door behind them.

 

Past day 80 or so the game starts to feel REALLY easy when you can field 12 soldiers on a mission and even 1 Phantom is enough to take care of business in the sky.

 

There's no panic and no pressure on the strategic layer, and the tactical layer is trivialized by a combination of weak AI, Dragonfly and Training centers.

 

The pacing seems really easy on the player as the Elites show up noticeably later in Milestone 2.

Edited December 4, 2023 by ovoron

[Skitso]

I played on v2.16 one veteran ironman run without training center up to day 110 and found the general difficulty to be pretty spot on for me all the way until I got lasers and guardian armor, which made the ground combat too easy at least until Cleaner HQ and Observers. The aliens just couldn't produce enough damage to be much of threat and were also too flimsy health wise. I didn't get the Dragonfly yet, but could see it trivializing the whole tactical combat part of the game with the ability to deploy two MARS units and 10 soldiers. I suppose at least the Abductor needs a lot larger crew with boosted health/armor to provide any kind of challenge to full dragonfly/guardian/laser team.

I don't play manual air game and just auto resolve everything. I made a mistake of building too many Angels: I had 3 at Europe base and two at America base. I had some trouble catching Abductors, but otherwise having them armed with accelerated cannon, sidewinder and armor plates, I had absolutely no trouble gaining air superiority. Overall the air game felt a bit too easy and I never lost a single aircraft.

First base attack could be a bit easier (the tactical mission) but be harder to avoid. It's too easy currently to spot the UFO heading towards the base and too easy to shoot it down.

I'd say the money balance is in a fairly good spot. I could expand bases and buy enough cool toys but needed to think and prioritize stuff.

On the other hand, I had accumulated way too much alloys by the point where I had researched Warden armor and accelerated weapons. I could just manufacture new gear to everybody at the instant I had them available, which felt boring and too straight forward. I suggest increasing Warden's and laser weapon's alloy cost 2 or 3 per unit. I also had the same issue with Guardian armor and laser weapons; I could manufacture everything in one go as soon as they became available. This time I had other stuff to spend my alloys too  (like Phantoms, air weapon upgrades etc.) so I couldn't make everything at once, but I stil suggest increasing laser weapon's and Guardian armour's alloy costs by 4 or 5 abd decrease alloy cost of other things so I couldn't upgrade my whole team at one go.

And why did I play without training center, you might ask? Because it's way too OP. Rookies are already too good when I recruit them and they gain experience way too fast. Xenonauts become homogenous super soldiers in time of maybe 10 missions, and after that everyone can excell in everything.

Edited December 4, 2023 by Skitso