Improvements with regards to night battles

[Armor9D]

I think it's really neat that night battles are represented in game and are meaningfully different from day battles, but there are some steps that could be taken to make them easier to prepare for or avoid and to give the player more options for interacting with them.  Firstly, it would be nice if, when dispatching a dropship, I could see when it will arrive at its destination and if that time will be during night or day, as it can be difficult to guess that correctly.  It would also be nice if a dropship could loiter at a mission site rather than just having to launch the mission immediately upon arrival or else recall back to base, so that dropships arriving just before daylight could wait it out.  Lastly, given that the game takes place in 2009, it seems a bit weird that our soldiers don't have night vision goggles and sights available to them and are forced to rely on flares for illumination.  It would be nice to have an NVG module that gives a soldier full visibility at night at the cost of some accuracy penalty and no longer being able to throw flares.  It might also be worth making it so that maps have some natural illumination at night, as it seems a bit weird that none of the buildings have lights on, and that UFOs have no interior illumination.

[GreyICE]

I miss the really dark nights of XCOM.  Like so dark it was hard to make out what was happening.  So atmospheric.

I'm hoping the visuals really get a good pass late beta.  It's obviously something that can be done at any point, but some of the concept art for Xenonauts 2 was simply stunning, great lighting and shadows, and adding that back in would make night so much more atmospheric. 

I really liked sighting an alien and trying to work out what it was from its outline too.  That just felt "shit what's out there".  Obviously night missions in XCOM were quite manageable, but there was always this primal dread of them.  With a modern lighting engine like Unity it could be amazing - little pools of streetlights and lamps illuminating the dark, flares thrown out and casting a dim orange illumination over a small area, etc.   

Feel like a really good visual update would make night missions work more than mechanical adjustments - most of the ways they don't "work" for me right now are really flavor related. 

Also all the troops should automatically stock 2 flares, and more should take up inventory space.  18 flares would cover most maps anyway. 

[Skitso]

I agree. I suggested this to Chris, but he's a firm believer of function before flair, and is afraid that making night missions more moody affects gameplay to much.

 

Here's my thread about it: 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Skitso

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

Definitely agree that night missions should be scarier! People's most exciting memories of original XCOM are often the night missions -- who else remembers creeping through a dark corn field toward an ominous barn...

So, some ideas:

* More oppressive fog of war (see Skitso's examples);
* Night vision goggles as equipment;
* Torches as equipment;
* Xenonauts suffer a Bravery penalty when they're in the dark so they're more likely to panic;
* Aliens in the dark are harder to hit. Light them up with a torch before lighting them up with a machinegun! 
* Terror and Abduction missions only happen at night (which fits thematically);
* Alien base missions count as nighttime.
 

[Skitso]

If I remember correctly, In TFTD at least, UFO interiors were all played with night visuals and rules too

Edited August 4, 2023 by Skitso

[doubleskulls]

I think the problem is that its pretty easy to avoid night battles, I know I'll often time my missions to ensure they are in daytime to avoid having to muck about with flares. Atmosphere may help encourage people to play them anyway, but anything that makes them tougher is actually a waste of developer resources. The tougher night battles, the more people will avoid them, and the less those mechanics get used. 

[Skitso]

16 minutes ago, doubleskulls said:

I think the problem is that its pretty easy to avoid night battles, I know I'll often time my missions to ensure they are in daytime to avoid having to muck about with flares. Atmosphere may help encourage people to play them anyway, but anything that makes them tougher is actually a waste of developer resources. The tougher night battles, the more people will avoid them, and the less those mechanics get used. 

Yeah, not tougher but better looking and more moodier and oppressive.

[Sunnybuns]

You could just take a page out of Jagged Alliance 2 and 3 and have weather be a part of the battle at night. Fog, heavy rain, messing with accuracy on both sides. Though I'm not sure that's possible since weather effects didn't reach the kick starter goal.

[FLIR]

7 hours ago, GreyICE said:

I miss the really dark nights of XCOM.  Like so dark it was hard to make out what was happening.  So atmospheric.

I'm hoping the visuals really get a good pass late beta.  It's obviously something that can be done at any point, but some of the concept art for Xenonauts 2 was simply stunning, great lighting and shadows, and adding that back in would make night so much more atmospheric. 

Yes, the reason why the original X-Com and TFTD are my favorite games is: the atmosphere. They did so much right that others did not understand: the sound effects, the creepy music and the atmospheric graphics: darkness, fog, dust, smoke, etc. Seeing just the silhouettes of the alien creatures or identifying them based on their sound while they move in the darkness: that is so atmospheric. My single wish for Xenonauts 2 is that it creates a stronger atmosphere on visual (and audio level), everything else is great already!

Dark corridors:

[doubleskulls]

1 hour ago, Sunnybuns said:

You could just take a page out of Jagged Alliance 2 and 3 and have weather be a part of the battle at night. Fog, heavy rain, messing with accuracy on both sides. Though I'm not sure that's possible since weather effects didn't reach the kick starter goal.

Do we know how Aliens are affected by night right now? i.e. do they have reduced vision range? I've had some situations where I've exposed an alien with a flare, and can't ever recollect having a reaction shot against me out of the dark, so I think they may just suffer reduced vision, and actually the player has an advantage. 

@FLIR - I started with TFTD, and its atmosphere is what's got me still playing the same games 25+ years on! 

[FLIR]

48 minutes ago, doubleskulls said:

 

@FLIR - I started with TFTD, and its atmosphere is what's got me still playing the same games 25+ years on! 

Same here - I also got TFTD first. And to be honest, the original X-Com was a little bit of a letdown afterwards, because TFTD was gloomier, stranger and more oppressive than X-Com and it had atmosphere in spades. I loved the larger levels, "light management" in deep sea or night missions and the overall Lovecraftian horror atmosphere. TFTD is my absolute nr. 1 favorite game of all the time. I even prefer the Dos original over the OpenXcom version (despite all the advantages it has): the reason is the AI. Half of the AI in the original TFTD was fully random - and this is why the creatures moved and behaved so strange, which made them feel even more "alien". In other games, especially modern ones, the "creatures" move and fight like human soldiers or a human squad, total kills the immersion for me.

Another detail that the other games lack: starting in the closed sub and having to open the door is such an atmospheric beginning of a mission. One always starts there, does not know what is outside until opening it. Running down the already open aircraft in the X-Com derivatives never reaches the atmosphere and feeling of anticipation of TFTD missions (what comes close to TFTD in this regard is "Teleglitch" mission starts, but it is a totally different genre). Not to speak of the strange alien structures of TFTD, like the colonies which looked like out of a Lynch movie, loved the colors...

I wonder why nobody ever recreated this absolute gem.

BTW: I still have the original European version with the beautiful cover:

Edited August 4, 2023 by FLIR

[Sunnybuns]

2 hours ago, doubleskulls said:

Do we know how Aliens are affected by night right now? i.e. do they have reduced vision range?

If I remember from Xenonauts 1, Aliens have night vision. They probably do too in Xenonauts 2.

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

6 hours ago, doubleskulls said:

I think the problem is that its pretty easy to avoid night battles, I know I'll often time my missions to ensure they are in daytime to avoid having to muck about with flares. Atmosphere may help encourage people to play them anyway, but anything that makes them tougher is actually a waste of developer resources. The tougher night battles, the more people will avoid them, and the less those mechanics get used. 

Make Terror and abduction missions night only?

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

5 hours ago, FLIR said:

Yes, the reason why the original X-Com and TFTD are my favorite games is: the atmosphere. They did so much right that others did not understand: the sound effects, the creepy music and the atmospheric graphics: darkness, fog, dust, smoke, etc. Seeing just the silhouettes of the alien creatures or identifying them based on their sound while they move in the darkness: that is so atmospheric. My single wish for Xenonauts 2 is that it creates a stronger atmosphere on visual (and audio level), everything else is great already!

Dark corridors:

100%, this is it exactly! I've really enjoyed my X2 time so far, but this comment is like a lightbulb moment: X2 is lacking the atmosphere of X-Com and TFTD. Those games were scary in a way that X2 currently isn't. Ironically, it might be in part due to the simpler graphics of the old games, as your imagination would do a lot of the heavy lifting and fill in the blanks. I think that better night missions are part of the solution, but even regular missions need more atmosphere and a sense of dread.

[DaviddesJ]

13 hours ago, GreyICE said:

Also all the troops should automatically stock 2 flares, and more should take up inventory space.  18 flares would cover most maps anyway. 

I don't see the point of this. The cost of the flares is the time needed to throw them, not the number available. Unless there's some reason to go on night missions, making them harder is just going to cause people to avoid them even more.

 

I suggest more time pressure, i.e., if you wait until morning you're at risk of lesser rewards, more opposition, etc.

[Zach]

Maybe the solution is to increase the reward for night missions. Currently, there is no reason at all to do them. The player needs to be incentivized.

1) reducing panic. If the local populous sees that the Xenonaut team(s) are victorious over the aliens at night (which is often panic-inducing), then that should alleviate some stress (panic).

2) flares can distract alien units to slightly decrease their reaction and/or accuracy.

Can we get creative?

[doubleskulls]

11 hours ago, DaviddesJ said:

I suggest more time pressure, i.e., if you wait until morning you're at risk of lesser rewards, more opposition, etc.

Yes, I think something that rewards the player for taking on night battles is important. Its either that make them different for both aliens and player, like @Sunnybuns suggested. 

[FLIR]

14 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

100%, this is it exactly! I've really enjoyed my X2 time so far, but this comment is like a lightbulb moment: X2 is lacking the atmosphere of X-Com and TFTD. Those games were scary in a way that X2 currently isn't. Ironically, it might be in part due to the simpler graphics of the old games, as your imagination would do a lot of the heavy lifting and fill in the blanks. I think that better night missions are part of the solution, but even regular missions need more atmosphere and a sense of dread.

Yes, I think that X2 can easily be more atmospheric and immersive than X-Com with some small changes. Night missions are already really atmospheric also because of the more serious creepy music ( no "action music", it destroys atmosphere):

So these night mission in wooded areas are already really atmospheric. Some small things would make the above more scary. For example:

1st rule to make an atmospheric, scary game:

The enemy is "unknown". The players should not see the HP points or other states of the enemy "running around in the darkness". Strong enemies or enemies immune to certain ammunition types were so scary in the original, because you would shoot and shoot (not seeing the HP or other effect on the target), but they did not go down... that is "movie stuff" that makes a game an experience and the player also has to be more observant then, which automatically also increases immersion.

And one cool thing in the original X-Com was how important the sound was in that regard: when hitting a silhouette in the darkness with the creature going down, one had to listen - was there a scream? If not it was just unconscious would either bleed out in the next turn lying there or (and that made it tense/creepy) it would get up again silently after some turn. The "unkown enemy" is the most important part and easy to achieve, no graphics changes needed, just options to turn them all off.

 

14 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

Make Terror and abduction missions night only?

I would prefer a simple in-game option: "always night".

I did this in the original X-Com and TFTD in Dos via an edit. Increases the atmosphere a lot! I simply pretended: it is only possible to approach the crash/landing/colony/etc. site at night or "the aliens darkened the skies" (lol). 

BTW: I am new to the forum. Is there a way to contact the developers and discuss such ideas/suggestions/requests with them?

Edited August 5, 2023 by FLIR

[Skitso]

17 minutes ago, FLIR said:

BTW: I am new to the forum. Is there a way to contact the developers and discuss such ideas/suggestions/requests with them?

Goldhawk's project lead @Chris is very active on these boards and refreshingly transparent on how he sees the game and in which direction he wants to take it in the fututre.

[doubleskulls]

I like the thought process, but if you are playing commander level you don't see HP/Armour of enemies anyway. Also, I think having the outline of the figure in most instances would be an obvious reveal too. There aren't too many enemies with very similar profiles you'd get confused by.

And the project lead, Chris, reads this forums, and regularly responds. 

[GreyICE]

On 8/3/2023 at 10:38 PM, Skitso said:

I agree. I suggested this to Chris, but he's a firm believer of function before flair, and is afraid that making night missions more moody affects gameplay to much.

 

Here's my thread about it: 

 

Thanks for that thread.  I understand the idea, but frankly... that response is silly.  Mood and feeling matter a lot.  This is entertainment, I like feeling entertained, and a spooky night mission is cool and fun.  Night missions should be scary and unwelcoming. If you want to make people do more of them, reward them for reaching the UFOs/Terror sites quickly - maybe make civilian deaths count, and make some number of civilians die every hour so that the Xenonauts showing up late would cost you council rep.  

I really liked your photoshop, it was obviously rough, but it already looked better.  The harsh line is just too gameplay-ish, it's not how light works.  If the dev wants the shade to have a mechanical effect, maybe shooting shaded units has an accuracy penalty if you don't have some form of nightvision - like you are having trouble seeing them, harder to hit them.