Map layout preview before mission setup

[Chthon]

Something that would be nice, and would even make sense is giving the player a map preview before they set up for the mission. This could be an unaltered version of the map without crashed UFOs and damage from the UFOs. Just stuff that you would generally know about the map, and a general idea about where any UFO was downed, and allies might be located.

This kind of intelligence would be important and sensible. It'd be provided by the host country if it's still allied to the Xenonauts. If it's not allied, it might not be as accurate, unless the Xenonauts have a base in the area or have observed it recently.

This would help prevent situations where you bring a vehicle on a raid where a vehicle might not be as useful due to cramped quarters. Other times you might bring snipers where there are no places for them to set up to snipe. Just what weapons you bring to a mission could be greatly affected by the general map layout.

Of course this would change the idea of there would be areas that you haven't seen that are blacked out, and areas you don't currently see that are grey. Instead maybe there are areas that are dark grey but you can see what you think is the map and buildings, and lighter grey, you've seen the map and layout, but aren't looking at it currently. In short, you cannot fully trust the dark grey map and buildings, but you have some idea what is there for the terrain as you have some intelligence. Then you can still have black areas, which you had no intelligence. Perhaps these are areas which were confidential to the local host nation on special missions.

Edit: Another thought is that it doesn't have to show building interiors. It could just be an aerial view. This would also mean that the black areas would extend to building interiors, with dark grey being the building exteriors until you view them.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Chthon

[WhyNotDrZ]

I would strongly support having some kind of map knowledge at the start. Even if it was just what you might see when the Skyhawk flew in.

[Ruggerman]

Well if you have played this game as long as I have, you will get a good knowledge of the map layouts, as there are not to many to memories, now that could change if a lot more maps are added, and that would be a good out come, but as it stands now there are only one or two layouts  per bio-dome.

[Chthon]

I feel though that this level of pre intel also opens the door to an intel gathering game, where you could have to gather intel on a mission before hand, or even go in with bad or wrong intel on a map.

[Chris]

Hmmm. So there’s two reasons why I’m not sure about this. The first is technical, and it’s that the map for a mission isn’t actually picked until after the mission begins (only the biome is known). Not impossible to change but it does mean extra work.

The second issue is a design one. This feature does get suggested quite a lot in various guises - it’s usually “why is there shroud on the map when you can look out the window of the dropship?”

The problem I see is that a lot of the tension in the game comes with exploring the unknown, and removing the map shroud reduces that tension and would make the game less engaging.

I think your interpretation of the idea is probably the best so far, because seeing the map on strategy means that you can plan your loadouts accordingly and you could rely on memory in the combat rather than actually removing the shroud. But I’m still concerned it might affect the overall experience.

[Chthon]

My idea though is to have certain things like buildings be what you remember, and other things, like props and cover be the things that you have to discover.

[Chris]

On 7/8/2023 at 5:19 PM, Chthon said:

My idea though is to have certain things like buildings be what you remember, and other things, like props and cover be the things that you have to discover.

Yeah. I think from a design perspective that idea is fine, actually.

Technically it's quite hard to do, unfortunately - you'd need to select a map for the mission and then generate it in order to get a preview of it, and I don't think that's realistically possible on the strategy layer. Quite a big chunk of the time taken to load into a tactical mission is the map generation process so it's something that is measured in tens of seconds, not something you can access in a split second like the other information shown for a mission. And then hiding certain parts of the map would complicate things further.

I'm sorta tempted to add a checkbox for removing the shroud at a start of the mission to the options because that's a relatively simple thing from a technical perspective. But that's somewhat beside the point of this thread I guess.

[Sheena-Tiger]

I like the idea of having intel before selecting the team to go in there but I do see the issues from a programming point of view. Doing that as a job gives some insights into such issues.

But, considering you already know which biome you are landing in, could it be boiled down a bit more? Like "City", "Industrial", "Rural" and "Wilderness". Thus maybe helping already what might be a good choice for the loadout. Snipers might not be in high demand in a city or industrial map with high obstacles while an assault would have to cross large distances without real cover when out in the wilderness.

I am not speaking about giving a preview, just an information/text and/or stock-image fitting for the biome. Like a forest or a village in an oasis.

[Chris]

3 hours ago, Sheena-Tiger said:

I like the idea of having intel before selecting the team to go in there but I do see the issues from a programming point of view. Doing that as a job gives some insights into such issues.

But, considering you already know which biome you are landing in, could it be boiled down a bit more? Like "City", "Industrial", "Rural" and "Wilderness". Thus maybe helping already what might be a good choice for the loadout. Snipers might not be in high demand in a city or industrial map with high obstacles while an assault would have to cross large distances without real cover when out in the wilderness.

I am not speaking about giving a preview, just an information/text and/or stock-image fitting for the biome. Like a forest or a village in an oasis.

That would certainly be much easier to implement, yeah. If it's information people think they would use then that's probably something we could do.

[DaviddesJ]

I feel like if you're loading your transport for a mission to a site where an alien ship just crashed, a thousand miles away, you probably would not actually have much idea what the crash site looks like. I also personally don't have that much interest in micro-optimizing my assault team. Just my different opinion, I think it works fine the way it is now.

[Boris Eysbroek]

On 7/14/2023 at 6:28 AM, DaviddesJ said:

I feel like if you're loading your transport for a mission to a site where an alien ship just crashed, a thousand miles away, you probably would not actually have much idea what the crash site looks like. I also personally don't have that much interest in micro-optimizing my assault team. Just my different opinion, I think it works fine the way it is now.

I disagree. The game takes place in 2009. Surely, an international funded organization tasked with protecting humanity from imminent doom, has access to satellite images/google maps and a worldwide network of high-ranking liaisons.
Not having basic geographic and infrastructure intel is utterly immersion breaking.

[DaviddesJ]

You can have basic maps, but unless you had real time satellite imagery and an army of analysts, how would you know exactly where the UFO crashed, down to a few feet? If you really have that level of surveillance, why do you need to build bases and radars?

[Chthon]

On 7/15/2023 at 8:41 PM, DaviddesJ said:

You can have basic maps, but unless you had real time satellite imagery and an army of analysts, how would you know exactly where the UFO crashed, down to a few feet? If you really have that level of surveillance, why do you need to build bases and radars?

If you've read what I suggested, I never suggested placing the UFO's location on the maps, in fact I suggested possibly having false intel and only a general idea of where it might have gone down. In some cases it could have crashed through an already existent building that is what is shown instead, or it might have crashed into untouched wilderness which is shown instead. However, Chris has stated that there are technical limitations at this time that block this.

As such I don't know why you are dead set against this because we wouldn't know where the UFO was exactly. That was never a part of this, as intel was something that was to be gathered by host nations or the Xenonauts through other means and would affect the map.

[DaviddesJ]

If you are only suggesting having some idea within a few mile radius of where the UFO crashed, that wouldn't tell the player anything. It might be an area with buildings or a park or a warehouse or any of the other possibilities.

Edited July 17, 2023 by DaviddesJ

[Chthon]

15 hours ago, DaviddesJ said:

If you are only suggesting having some idea within a few mile radius of where the UFO crashed, that wouldn't tell the player anything. It might be an area with buildings or a park or a warehouse or any of the other possibilities.

I'm suggesting that when you shot the UFO down, you had jets in the area to witness it. Those jets are likely equipped with cameras, so taking a picture of the area is a simple task. Matching that picture up to a map of the area though on short notice though is not so simple without help.

To top it off with, as the drop ship is going to fly in and have an idea of what is going on there as well.

As far as "a few miles radius" if you think the maps are a few miles wide, you have a problem with your perceptions there. At most they are a few hundred meters on each side.

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:51 AM, Chris said:

The second issue is a design one. This feature does get suggested quite a lot in various guises - it’s usually “why is there shroud on the map when you can look out the window of the dropship?”

The problem I see is that a lot of the tension in the game comes with exploring the unknown, and removing the map shroud reduces that tension and would make the game less engaging.

Just add that as an option, so player can choose if they want shroud or not.

Also, I don't agree with what you said - I don't think knowing entire map would lower the tension, I think that this kind of thing is really subjective (and that's why it would be best to make it optional), you still don't know where aliens are, your soldier must have line of sight to them to actually see them.

[DaviddesJ]

5 hours ago, Chthon said:

As far as "a few miles radius" if you think the maps are a few miles wide, you have a problem with your perceptions there. At most they are a few hundred meters on each side.

That's my point. If your interceptors know where you shot down the UFO, within a few mile radius, that gives you almost no idea what the actual map of the vicinity will look like. You have to locate the UFO and land to know that.

[Chthon]

2 hours ago, DaviddesJ said:

That's my point. If your interceptors know where you shot down the UFO, within a few mile radius, that gives you almost no idea what the actual map of the vicinity will look like. You have to locate the UFO and land to know that.

A few hundred meters is not a few miles radius. It's not even one quarter mile. Also as I said and you promptly ignored, even period planes had cameras recording flyovers, which would be able to show what the area looked like where the UFO landed before it was shot down.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Chthon

[DaviddesJ]

17 minutes ago, Chthon said:

A few hundred meters is not a few miles radius. It's not even one quarter mile.

That's literally my point. If you only know within a few mile radius where the UFO crashed, then it could be on any of a hundred different tactical maps, all of which look different. So letting you see the tactical map before you even depart and locate the crash site would make very little sense.

 

If you shoot a UFO down in an air battle at 30,000 feet you're not going to know exactly where it crashes until you get there and do reconnaissance.

[Chthon]

3 minutes ago, DaviddesJ said:

That's literally my point. If you only know within a few mile radius where the UFO crashed, then it could be on any of a hundred different tactical maps, all of which look different. So letting you see the tactical map before you even depart and locate the crash site would make very little sense.

 

If you shoot a UFO down in an air battle at 30,000 feet you're not going to know exactly where it crashes until you get there and do reconnaissance.

You seem to be missing the point that the Xenonaut team already have enough intelligence from SOMEWHERE to know how to narrow down the crash site of the UFO to a few hundred meter area, or you'd be doing a huge area sweep, and that'd make very boring gameplay.

Even a military wouldn't be doing that, flying reconnaissance aircraft over is standard protocol before a mission like this. Just because you don't see it as a player doesn't mean it isn't happening.

[DaviddesJ]

1 minute ago, Chthon said:

You seem to be missing the point that the Xenonaut team already have enough intelligence from SOMEWHERE to know how to narrow down the crash site of the UFO to a few hundred meter area, or you'd be doing a huge area sweep, and that'd make very boring gameplay.

I assume the dropship flies to the area and looks around for the crash site before landing. Same as locating the cleaner base or whatever. You have a general idea of where it is from 10,000 km away, but you only find it more precisely when you go there.

[Chthon]

1 minute ago, DaviddesJ said:

I assume the dropship flies to the area and looks around for the crash site before landing. Same as locating the cleaner base or whatever. You have a general idea of where it is from 10,000 km away, but you only find it more precisely when you go there.

So, you admit that the dropship itself might get an aerial view of the terrain, but that they might not be able to communicate that to the soldiers? Now I have a problem with that train of thought.

Well, that and the fact that a dropship itself being used for reconnaissance. They have fast flying aircraft with cameras for that, and these will send imagery back to command before the mission generally. This is standard military S.O.P. since WWI. Believe it or not, they had unmanned drones back then for this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_unmanned_aerial_vehicles

[DaviddesJ]

3 minutes ago, Chthon said:

So, you admit that the dropship itself might get an aerial view of the terrain, but that they might not be able to communicate that to the soldiers?

The question was about whether you would know details of the battle area back at the base when you're loading the dropship, before you get anywhere close. That's what this thread is about. Have you forgotten what you originally wrote?

Edited July 18, 2023 by DaviddesJ

[Krzysztof z Bagien]

3 minutes ago, DaviddesJ said:

I assume the dropship flies to the area and looks around for the crash site before landing. Same as locating the cleaner base or whatever. You have a general idea of where it is from 10,000 km away, but you only find it more precisely when you go there.

I'd rather think that local forces do a search as you fly there and relay what they found to you. They can have a military recon plane in that general area in minutes, police or even firefighter's helicopters etc. doing the search, also people living near the crash site would simply call their local equivalent of 911 and report they saw something big coming down from the sky in flames and crashed behind that hill or forrest or in their neighbourhood.

[Chthon]

Just now, DaviddesJ said:

The question was about whether you would know details of the battle area back at the base when you're loading the dropship, before you get anywhere close. That's what this thread is about.

Yes, and any competent commander would make sure to get these details before sending living souls out to fight an unknown combatant. Just because you don't see it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen behind the scenes. Just like your engineers go out and buy what they need from the local markets to construct what they build. You don't have to make the purchase orders. They do that themselves without your input.