Ground combat too easy

[HWP]

There's little pleasure in beating a dumb opponent.

It's just more fun to beat a smart opponent - even if that opponent has to be nerfed in other ways for that (weak guns, lack of armor, poor aim, inferior numbers).

I was going to say it's good to nerf the AI on Easy, but now I'm not sure. Currently trying to restore full AI to XCOM EU on Easy while pimping up the enemies big time so as to make for a potentially less boring game experience than mowing down crowds of weak aliens.

[yorak]

Also I'd like to bring out my opinion.

Tactically solid AI, that is playing to win, is not as FUN as you would imagine in TBS games. I don't know how many of you have played ufo2000, the multiplayer remake of original XCOM, but I found playing XCOM against human level opponent quite annoying. Part of the FUN IMO in original XCOM/TFTD was that you were able to somewhat exploit the shortcomings of the AI and get a feeling that your strike team has a fighting chance against the aliens.

[StellarRat]

Also I'd like to bring out my opinion.

Tactically solid AI, that is playing to win, is not as FUN as you would imagine in TBS games. I don't know how many of you have played ufo2000, the multiplayer remake of original XCOM, but I found playing XCOM against human level opponent quite annoying. Part of the FUN IMO in original XCOM/TFTD was that you were able to somewhat exploit the shortcomings of the AI and get a feeling that your strike team has a fighting chance against the aliens.

I'm not worried that the AI will be as good as a human. Gjis Jan is no doubt a good AI programmer, but given the hardware and time/money limitations I don't see the AI as being "human level". In fact, I've never seen a PC game with an AI that good. IBM's Deep Blue could actually beat a human at chess and ONLY chess was dozens of times more powerful than current PC and cost a million dollars. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_(chess_computer) Xenonauts is much more complicated than chess so it would require an even bigger hardware and more programming then Deep Blue had.

I am a bit shocked to learn about UFO 2000! I didn't know anything like that existed.

[zzz1010]

I didn't play full game long time, mostly I just try new builds in quick battle, but tommorow i did it and it's realy easy (at least at normal). (Need to say it very stable now, I has couple of crashes at second turn in town, but restart mission from geoscape always help, but all other work very well(and this soldiers hire screen is nice addition), good work (but some known for months mistakes in some spectres still not fixed))

I has some scout and lightscout battles and four terrors(two was at night) and only lost two soldiers(well, there was some wounded, sometimes one or two by battle). One was killed by my own sniper, and second by my machinegunner( I think my guys have powerfull magnets in their pockets, it's not too much work for plasma but perfectly attract bullets)

And this not because I am so good in such games, i'm sometimes restart missions several times to win or lose more the half of squad in almost every battle before I got good gear.

I think need to double all ufo crews and maybe make them more deadly(only make them deadly not help too much we just overwhelm them by number and there also neutral soldiers who completely useless at fight but take fire too).

(Well, I can change it just for me personaly, but I'm about game, inot just me)

But not double theIr HP(only several rare ones can be really tough ) because it's does fights not much difficult but tedious and tighten. It's tend to just always moving by whole squad and when find one - several turns shoot at it by whole squad just to kill one - no too much room for tactic or intresting.

To slip by guy with shotgun and blow alien brain by his close shot or lucky shot of good placed sniper is much more fun, exciting and rewarding.

And it makes no difference whether they are smart. 3 AI aliens can't harm enougth 12 human soldiers under control of human even if the AI ​​is a genius.

You just didn't saw bigger ufos - you can say, but we must feel some danger in the beginning too.

It's too early to talk about it - it is for beta stage, I know, but we already can think about it.

It's different theme but it's question I interested in - for what and why we need night missions - I'am not about they not needed, but no one fly at mission at night. In them must be something to attract despite the disadvantages we have there. Well, in terrors we can't choose too much - but it's rare - And also rare landings. Mostly we have crashsites. And I never fly at mission at night - what can make me change my mind and use night for mission?

Maybe there will be no civilians at night and bigger penalties for their death generally. I don't know what there must be but something needed.

Edited November 12, 2012 by zzz1010

[Xcom Veteran]

Hello!

I just played original X-COM on hardest level - GOD level. I must say that for veterans AI in oryginal game is bad, and Xenonauts can be much better. I was so strong that I had 3 bases (2 weak) on the end of the first month, and 5 bases in 3 months. The only problem I had it was mission start when you go outside ship (only one exit) and You are dead or to kill aliens in their ship (sometimes I drop proximity grenades and wait until they go outside ). After have personal armours and better accuracy mission was easy. Many bases = low cash in first months.

I hate very good accuracy of aliens. I can't hit them or hit them only little but bastards hit me often. I hate it.

I don't like also:

- aliens doing nothing in open area.

- aliens are not prepeared to fight. They should have some hidden soldiers looking around in good direction. In original they sometimes standing like idiots backward to my ship 10 feet away.

- they should have some wouned aliens after crash - pleas, pleas, pleas!

- aliens should better defend ship (they sometimes "talking" in group backward to main doors).

- aliens should have some groups who will atack, and others who will hide/defend, and some captain to defend him or ship. And if many atackers die, they should try to escape/defend.

- if aliens didn't crash. They should be prepared to defend better - maybe even ambush. On first mission they can be not prepeared because they dont know we have Xenonauts.

- neutral soldiers also should hide, not standing like hero in one open place.

I like:

- panic & breaserking aliens.

[Khall]

I think need to double all ufo crews and maybe make them more deadly(only make them deadly not help too much we just overwhelm them by number and there also neutral soldiers who completely useless at fight but take fire too).

(Well, I can change it just for me personaly, but I'm about game, inot just me)

I agree the light scout missions do feel very tedious at the moment, I'm just rushing my troops out as fast as I can in search groups to find the 2-3 aliens on the map, which pose little threat when I do. It makes the early game quite boring. This will probably get fixed during balancing in beta though.

It's different theme but it's question I interested in - for what and why we need night missions - I'am not about they not needed, but no one fly at mission at night. In them must be something to attract despite the disadvantages we have there. Well, in terrors we can't choose too much - but it's rare - And also rare landings. Mostly we have crashsites. And I never fly at mission at night - what can make me change my mind and use night for mission?

Maybe there will be no civilians at night and bigger penalties for their death generally. I don't know what there must be but something needed.

I see it from a different point of view, night missions are not supposed to be chosen over day missions given the choice. Only if necessary should you do a night mission, for example, you shoot down 3 UFOs but night is approaching. If you wait until day you won't be able to do all 3 so you'll have to do a night mission to get them all. So I think night missions should actually have a larger penalty, e.g. sight radius is actually reduced instead of being blacked out near the edges and dark areas should have an accuracy penalty (flares could become useful by increasing sight range and lighting up a target, increasing accuracy). This could create more difficult choices for the player, should he risk a night mission or wait until day and risk losing the crash site. It's not really evident in the early game but later on when there are multiple crash sites is when the choices will arise.

[thothkins]

yeah, night missions were things to avoid. The game should make you want to avoid them. I'd often wait to launch my Skyranger so I could safely get there as soon as it was dawn. I'd only go in if I had no choice.

[zzz1010]

I see it from a different point of view,

All look from this point, I'm just trying to look from another. For now all just try to wait until day and there no any night missions in result.

If you make night disadvatages even worse it will be just more easy to just skip this crash even if there something very valuable. But it's can be only very rare to have some very valuable crashes at the same time and you(at least for now) always have time to take it before dusk or wait until sun if you shot down it at night. It old one we also has greatly larger distance from base where crashes can be

I just thought - maybe somehow to make me not wait, I just think night missions is interesting thing(specific horror atmosphere) by itself but you never get them because there no reason to take them. Well, OK, maybe it is unnecessary.

Oh, I know, maybe this is because there too few landed ufo missions, If they land more often and mostly at night you will not have time to wait and there real reward for flying at night to take it undamaged or you can wait until it take off and try to shot it down and fly when you want but have risk to lost some valuables

Edited November 12, 2012 by zzz1010

[Gauddlike]

Maybe there should be a bigger penalty on waiting until morning to take on the mission.

Perhaps the enemy wandering around all night has already had a big impact on nation relations.

In that case you either attack at night to try and prevent the potential funding loss or you take the safer route and wait, but lose some support in the process.

[zzz1010]

Maybe there should be a bigger penalty on waiting

We couldn't to have such penalties because there no any penalties for ignoring crash missions by design.

Not need to punish, need to reward

[Gauddlike]

So we can't suggest any kind of penalty for anything because there isn't an existing one?

There is also no reward for doing a night mission so does that mean no one can suggest one that would make night missions more appealing?

That would suggest that nothing can be changed, removed from, or added to the game which is patently false.

My post suggests that waiting would attract a bigger penalty than the penalties you face while undertaking a night time mission.

By its very nature it talks about changing something to make night missions occur more often, if only by making the wait until morning less desirable.

You mention yourself that there is no reason for undertaking a night time mission and that everyone waits for day time.

If there is no penalty at all for that decision then why would anyone choose to disadvantage their troops?

If you balance increased risk with increased reward it works just as well.

However it makes less sense to reward the player for attacking at night while at the same time penalising their troops with reduced effectiveness.

It makes no sense at all to give increased loot rewards for night missions or increase the amount of nation relations gained which are the two main ground combat rewards.

What would you suggest as a suitable reward system to make night missions a viable choice as you suggest that penalties are not a good idea?

[Max_Caine]

Question we have to ask is: What makes night missions such a turn-off? Well, the only difference between a day mission and a night mission is that your soliders can't see as much, whereas the aliens can. While this is intended to make night missions more challenging, if a player doesn't have to deliberatly disavantage his troops, he won't! However, there is a long history of night combat being the ideal time to mount attacks, so how then to parlay a unacceptable weakness into an acceptable strength?

Well, why not level the playing field? Give every racial type a weakness at night. For example, take sebillians. Give then a strong day/night diurnal sleep cycle, so at night they are sluggish and have their APs reduced. Perhaps make Caesians more emotionally fragile at night so they are easier to suppress and suffer a bigger morale hit when they loose a guy. If all racial types have a certain weakness that can only be exploited at night, then players might be enouraged to wait until nighttime to carry out big ops like taking on a crashed corvette.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Max_Caine

[Gauddlike]

That is similar to what I was trying to come up with but I just couldn't think of enough night related weaknesses without adding in a few night related strengths as well

Only thing worse than a reaper is a reaper in the dark after all.

[zzz1010]

So we can't suggest any kind of penalty for anything because there isn't an existing one?

Well, yes. If there no penalty for not doing mission at all, how there can be penalty for doing it slow. I just think it's right decision(not penalise) and it make things little less tedious. We not forced to do all crash missions by afraid of penalty - we take them for addition reward in score and artifacts, and we can not take some usless(if we think so) without afraid of punishment. Then I just thought maybe to make night ones somehow more rewarding because they usually more difficult and to make them slightly more attractive to player.

Well, why not level the playing field?

It's make things to be slightly different, previously we has weak humans versus horrible aliens, you make it - blind humans versus weak aliens. I don't want to say it can't be intresting, but I thought about how to make it more attractive without changing it nature.

Maybe there not need to change anything at all but I still feel we have some issues with it.

[Max_Caine]

zzz, I understand what you're saying, but you have to consider the effect of making it more rewarding to do a night-time mission than a day-time mission. Please read this article on rewards getting in the way of gaming before you continue to read this post.

Done that? Okay. Let's consider crash-sites. The game escalates fairly quickly in terms of UFOs. Fighters are replaced with heavy fighters. Scouts give way to corvettes (with or without escorts). Now, you've done the maps. You know how big a corvette or a landing ship is. At night, there's a serious disadvantage to me investigating a crashed large UFO. The enemy are more numerous, with better weapons and are better trained. My guys, as you put it, are blind. So if I was going to be rewarded for doing a night-time mission, it would have to be significant. I wouldn't risk my men and machines in a situation where I am at a disadvantage and my opponent is well armed and numerous. In other words, if the carrot is small and the stick is large, then I will not eat a small carrot to be hit with a big stick.

BUT. This carries a problem. If there is enough reward to be worth it to take out a UFO at night than at day, then I will stop investigating crash-sites during the day. I will investigate them at night, where the game is more difficult, but the rewards are larger and can be put into the tools (i.e. research and engineering) which make night missions easier. This flip-flops the problem identified - players do not play night-time missions. Players would stop playing daytime, and play at night, especially during the early game where the player has few resources and the player must maximise the resources he can get. Can you see how rewarding the player for doing night-time missions can have unintended effects? Can you see how rewards can get in the way of gaming?

Edited November 12, 2012 by Max_Caine

[StellarRat]

I think need to double all ufo crews and maybe make them more deadly(only make them deadly not help too much we just overwhelm them by number and there also neutral soldiers who completely useless at fight but take fire too).

I kind of agree with this, but there are so many other ways to make the aliens tougher to beat that it's hard to say what the best route to go is. You can make the individual aliens better shots, more AP, more HP, better weapons, better armor or you can increase the number of aliens or some combination all that. Also, you can make the Xenonauts less tough in the same ways. Above all that you can alter the strategic factors too, like starting money, etc...

In some situations adding more aliens might be impossible or silly. For example a light scout can't be completely packed with aliens in every tile! That would just look dumb. I'd say three aliens would be the max it could hold.

As far as the night missions go, I try to avoid them like the plague. I don't think they ought to be any penalties for waiting on those. There is a big penalty for not getting to a terror site already, so you really can't delay too much on those. My biggest problem with night fighting is that it's my opinion that flares really aren't helpful and don't work properly and the aliens don't seem to suffer any problems at night. Also, the Xenonauts don't appear to have night vision equipment of any kind (it was available in the sixties.)

I think it's a little early to start worrying about all this stuff yet. Chris will have to decide what route he wants to go when balancing time comes. The only thing I'm pretty sure about is that only one major factor should be changed at a time or the it will be too confusing to tell what effects it's having on the overall balance.

Edited November 13, 2012 by StellarRat

[zzz1010]

You can make the individual aliens better shots, more AP, more HP, better weapons, better armor or you can increase the number of aliens or some combination all that. Also, you can make the Xenonauts less tough in the same ways.

Better shots, more damage for alien weapons or less hp for our soldiers - it's all about to make them more deadly, I don't really like increasing hp or armor of enemy. And there no too much space for nerfing our soldiers, they already not very accurate and you cant make them be able to walk only for 3 square. Well, It's possible to half our squad size but it's not what this game want to be.

For example a light scout can't be completely packed with aliens in every tile! That would just look dumb. I'd say three aliens would be the max it could hold.

It can be easy to slightly change interior shape then it could to hold my six, Chris thought about changing interiors anyway(all this "to be horrible" epopee)

bacause 3 aliens(or one in crashed) just don't worth of battle. And I personaly just didn't care too much how they pack in it( in old x-com they usualy was packed very tight if you bring all in craft)

I think it's a little early to start worrying about all this stuff yet. Chris will have to decide what route he wants to go when balancing time comes.

I know, but if we already begun to talk then why not. It's at least more interesting than Obama elections Edited November 13, 2012 by zzz1010

[endervoid]

zzz, I understand what you're saying, but you have to consider the effect of making it more rewarding to do a night-time mission than a day-time mission. Please read this article on rewards getting in the way of gaming before you continue to read this post.

Done that? Okay. Let's consider crash-sites. The game escalates fairly quickly in terms of UFOs. Fighters are replaced with heavy fighters. Scouts give way to corvettes (with or without escorts). Now, you've done the maps. You know how big a corvette or a landing ship is. At night, there's a serious disadvantage to me investigating a crashed large UFO. The enemy are more numerous, with better weapons and are better trained. My guys, as you put it, are blind. So if I was going to be rewarded for doing a night-time mission, it would have to be significant. I wouldn't risk my men and machines in a situation where I am at a disadvantage and my opponent is well armed and numerous. In other words, if the carrot is small and the stick is large, then I will not eat a small carrot to be hit with a big stick.

BUT. This carries a problem. If there is enough reward to be worth it to take out a UFO at night than at day, then I will stop investigating crash-sites during the day. I will investigate them at night, where the game is more difficult, but the rewards are larger and can be put into the tools (i.e. research and engineering) which make night missions easier. This flip-flops the problem identified - players do not play night-time missions. Players would stop playing daytime, and play at night, especially during the early game where the player has few resources and the player must maximise the resources he can get. Can you see how rewarding the player for doing night-time missions can have unintended effects? Can you see how rewards can get in the way of gaming?

Totally agree with you, with increased rewards most players would only play night missions.

What you can do is make the alians dispatch a rescue ship to a crash side, so if you don't start immediately with your mission, you won't get anything from the crash site. If it will be night or day just depends on the time you shut down the ufo. If i remember correctly, this was how terror worked in ufo:eu, when they started at night, they disapeared at dawn.

To make up for the extreme disadvantage you have at night, you can maybe give your soldiers night vision scopes, which increase vision range, but also increase tunnel vision (which can turn out risky if the ai is able to flank). And maybe let you have infraret laser sights (which aliens could only see if they have night vision goggles, but as they naturaly see at night i doubt they need them. You can even make some alien types able to see infrared, so you have to be carefull using them). This laser sights will improve your aiming with night vision scopes. So you still don't see as good as the aliens, but once you see them, you have some accuracy advantages over day fighting. But also you have the greater risk of getting flanked or/and your position getting spotted by aliens with infraret vision.

[vitcons]

Yep, they are running out every time, instead aproach me and shoot..

[Gauddlike]

To make up for the extreme disadvantage you have at night, you can maybe give your soldiers night vision scopes, which increase vision range, but also increase tunnel vision (which can turn out risky if the ai is able to flank). And maybe let you have infraret laser sights (which aliens could only see if they have night vision goggles, but as they naturaly see at night i doubt they need them. You can even make some alien types able to see infrared, so you have to be carefull using them). This laser sights will improve your aiming with night vision scopes. So you still don't see as good as the aliens, but once you see them, you have some accuracy advantages over day fighting. But also you have the greater risk of getting flanked or/and your position getting spotted by aliens with infraret vision.

You could suggest that the higher tier armours have some kind of night vision built in (to save having to make new sprites wearing NV gear) but as far as I can tell the game has a single setting for day LOS and a single one for night time.

Unless that system was changed then any armour that could see a long distance at night would automatically have an even longer range during the day.

I still don't think NV is the best way to make night missions more popular.

All it does is make night missions more like day time missions, might as well just turn down the LOS penalty and turn the lighting up.

If the aliens despatch a repair ship then you could just wait until that appears and shoot it down as well.

You can then wait until day time to do two missions instead of one!

Alien tactics/spawns still feels like the best way to differentiate between the two types of mission.

On a night mission the aliens have a higher chance to be inside the crashed ship and a higher chance for their AI to be set to defensive as you catch them on their sleep cycle when they are less prepared.

The inside of the ship is already going to be dark with only its own internal lighting in places so that would be unaffected by the time.

It is only the approach and how the aliens react that would differ

It would be down to the player to decide if they prefer to catch more enemies in enclosed areas of the ship or if they prefer to catch them more spread out but potentially more aggressive.

That could still depend on the race, for example Androns may not be affected by the night time and Reapers may be nocturnal hunters who are less aggressive during the day (they mostly come at night... mostly) while the Sebillians are much more sluggish at night.

[endervoid]

Hello!

I just played original X-COM on hardest level - GOD level. I must say that for veterans AI in oryginal game is bad, and Xenonauts can be much better.

...

Did you play the version with the fixed difficulty bug? If you do, don't be offended by the question please

[zzz1010]

At first there no such level as "god" in old one, hardest called "superhuman" - it's make whole sentence less credible.

But difficulty level do nothing(noticeable) with AI (I mean AI agents behavior), and there no difference at which difficulty(and did you get fix for level choosing ) you play to make judgment about AI in game. It can be hard at high difficulty, sometimes very hard, but not because AI is become better.

Edited November 25, 2012 by zzz1010

[Xcom Veteran]

Hi,

I just played oryginal X-COM on god level again - about 6 months - 15 missions w/o reloading after soldiers lose (only 2 times when lose full team and started again in other place). Result is:

Month 1

1) -1 soldier, -1 tank,

2) -1 soldier,

3) -4 soldiers, -1 tank (Terror),

Month 2

4) -1 soldier, -1 tank,

5) -2 soldiers (Terror),

Month 3

6) no loses,

7) no loses,

8) -2 soldiers,

Month 4

9) -3 soldiers,

10) - tank (Terror),

11) - tank,

12) - tank,

Month 5

13) -3 soldiers, - tank (Terror),

Month 6

14) - tank (Terror),

Month 7

15) - full team (including last soldier from oryginal squad) (Terror),

Hard to play more because Aliens shooting first when you moving and one shoot = death. This is not funy. I will not play more.

I can't play more missions in one month because only big UFO flying far from my base (I have old fighters with old weapons). So only terror mission. I have one Alien base in traitor country, but I don't know I have any chance when PSI spam will apear. I don't have ground UFO missions from 3 months so I don't have Elerium = no way to build better ships and better rockets. No cash problems.

I can understand I'm weak, but 100% accuracy, 100% death (with best armour) from aliens shoot is deal breaker. I will not play more on God level.

Why I'm writing it. Because there is no sens to do good accuracy Aliens. I prefer smart one to have funy game.

Maybe next time I will try to throw smoking grenades everywhere - Aliens don't see You then but this is tiring.

[zzz1010]

but 100% accuracy, 100% death (with best armour)

It's not precise to be honest, if we bring some numbers it will be around 75-80% accuracy (for mutons and snakeman havyplasma aimed shot, eterials are better shooters but other is worse). And front shot in flying suit from havyplasma have less then 30% to be oneshot

[Gauddlike]

I think the point isn't the exact numbers but that using increased accuracy, hitpoints, and number of enemies as the methods of increasing difficulty is not the most fun way of doing it.

If the enemy is smarter then you have a more interesting challenge.

Buffed hitpoints, damage, enemy numbers, or accuracy is just the easy way to do it so it gets used a lot.