FTD Mod

[Max_Caine]

you don't ned to make it invincible, but you can make it beyond the reach of any one squadron. One might imagine the Dreadnaught in WoW terms - something along the scale of a 20-man Heroic Raid boss.

EDIT: I can imagine the conversation going something like: "OMG, it's going to take everything we've got to take this S.O.B. down!" "Or we can nuke it. It's no thing."

Edited June 27, 2014 by Max_Caine

[dpelectric]

Max: Ok, that's cool, if you're up to the task of balancing the AC variables, then fantastic

My only concern, again, is that the chance to intercept and shoot down the new UFOs does not compromise what I personally see as their greater strategic purpose: generating terror sites and base defenses, and thus (re)adding challenge and variety to the lategame GC.

I can't wait to see what you come up with

Edit: Remember these are air battles that not only you and Dranak can win!

Edited June 27, 2014 by dpelectric

[KevinHann]

I am slightly concerned about the X-120's alenium cost, and unsure how much sacrifice should be demanded of a player to build one or two. Alenium can definitely be used as a control on the player's air capabilities.

Edit: In fact I think that was what alenium was specifically designed for, since it's not required in any appreciable quantities for anything else but advanced aircraft and Hyperions

Is it really that big of a deal though? When you think of it 50 alenium is two or three extra late game ground combats on the massive UFOs. Perhaps it would be better if the game actually makes you think how you want to spend your resources rather than just hand them over naturally so that you can have both a large Marauder fleet and a couple Furies combined.

On a sidenote maintenance is more of a balancing issue for me than the actual one-time cost.

[KevinHann]

My only concern, again, is that the chance to intercept and shoot down the new UFOs does not compromise what I personally see as their greater strategic purpose: generating terror sites and base defenses, and thus (re)adding challenge and variety to the lategame GC.

There is another variable you might want to consider - how long it takes those UFOs to actually engage in Terror sites, thus giving the player a limited window to react. If they happen to spawn near your base, Marauders might have a chance to catch them; if they pop up on the edge of your radar coverage there wouldn't be enough time for a Marauder squadron to engage.

If they just wander around for a few hours before executing their missions any aircraft will be able to catch up just like Condors can catch Scouts - as UFOs have the habit of randomly changing direction regardless of your interceptors' path.

Edited June 27, 2014 by KevinHann

[dpelectric]

Kevin: Yes, that was exactly my point. How much alenium is required to produce a Fury can have a LOT of ripple effects.

If the alenium cost is high (40-50) then in my experience, in my games, this is definitely going to put a dent in your Marauder production. Which it possibly should, but again we need to consider that less Marauders (vs. a Fury) means less crash sites and less resources, since a Fury negates any crash sites, possibly creating a resource-starved cascading effect.

Agreed that 50 alenium is two or three extra late game ground combats on the massive UFOs. But to me 2-3 massive ship GCs is not such a little thing (maybe cuz I suck). And more importantly we are, at least at the moment, talking about introducing destroyers around the time of cruisers, when alenium is not around in quantity. At that point in time, 40-50 alenium, at least in my games, would be a major, major hit.

This could be countered, as previously proposed, by reducing the X-120's alenium cost to, say, maybe 35 (Marauders are 20). Or incrementally increasing the amount of alenium on midgame UFOs. There's a lot of balance issues here between the need for a Fury and its cost, the need for Marauders and their cost, the armageddon effect of singularity torps, and the resource flow.

If, conversely, the alenium cost of a Fury is reduced from it's present level (50) to make it an available counter to destroyers, would it make later-game dreadnaughts a non-issue since you'd probably have two X-120s around, each covering a hemisphere at lightning speed? Again, limiting the new UFO's airspeed to enable Marauder intercepts makes them concurrently more vulnerable to Furies.

Which all leads back again to the core question of if Marauders should be able to successfully intercept

[KevinHann]

Well considering Fury is a late game interceptor anyway how long do you consider late game should be? If 2-3 massive crash sites are that big of a deal and players prefer to avoid them en masse, it kind of negates the very reason behind adding more UFOs and enhancing Fury playability. I would prefer if the effort goes in the direction of making late game more interesting, varied and ultimately elongate it.

Doesn't matter how fast you will make those UFOs, slower interceptors will always have a chance of catching them as they aren't always chasing them.

Also trust me, if the player wants to have two, three or even a dozen Furies before Dreadnaughts even appear, a dozen Furies is what will be built, regardless of cost. You just have to consider which type of players you are balancing the game for. There are those who do 1-2 crash sites per UFO and then there are those who raid every single crash site (such as me) and the latter will inevitably have much, much superior amount of alenium. You might disagree with this playstyle but you can't ignore how the game would develop if it's employed.

That's why I suggested you should consider maintenance cost as the ultimate control factor, alenium is nearly irrelevant and you just can't base the entire balance on the willingness or reluctance of the player to do two extra ground combats.

Edited June 27, 2014 by KevinHann

[dpelectric]

Kevin: Ok, we'll take that as a vote to keep the alenium costs high

I wasn't "just" basing the "entire balance" on a couple of extra ground combats. I was simply saying that hey, I don't know about you, but I struggle through massive ground assaults!

The initial cost of a Fury would still be $600K with $100K maintenance. That, I think, at least before testing, is a good benchmark to try, for two reasons: one, that's what GH had it at, and this mod is going to introduce X-120s quite a bit earlier, and two, the Fury won't net you profitable crash sites, so though its maintenance costs are the same as a Marauder, it's not giving you the same potential payoff.

I stressed the alenium costs because that seems to me like the primary control mechanism for advanced aircraft. If you make the dollar cost of a Fury higher, say, a cool million with $200K maintenance, that would impact a player's manufacturing options across the board. Alenium really only affects aircraft production, so you can play with that without quite so many (though still considerable) balancing worries.

The overall thrust of what you're saying seems to be that you want the lategame to be both longer and more intense, and if so I 100% agree. If testers start cranking out Furies, though, that'll need to be stopped in its tracks. That'll misbalance the game and make what I see as the air supremacy issue even worse. I wasn't imagining more than two Furies; again, one to cover each hemisphere, unless we radically increase the frequency with which dreadnaughts in particular can appear

Edit: Anyhow, it sounds like Max is working on some AC trials, and that may decide a lot of things. So I think I'm just gonna chill until he unveils his efforts

Edited June 27, 2014 by dpelectric

[dpelectric]

If we are going to change when the X-120, and its singularity torpedo, become available, this needs to be tied into a trigger at the appropriate point in the game. Since, right now, only battleships contain singularity cores, I was thinking of adding these cores to strike cruisers as well (and changing the xenopedia entry accordingly). Strike cruisers because they don't create a crash site, and thus their ground models wouldn't have to be altered (as the ones for, say, cruisers and carriers would).

Strike cruisers currently appear at ticker 550 (carriers 650, battleships 800). This should work if we give destroyers 600, dreadnaughts 700. This is driven by the thought that if battleships appear at 800, players should be ready to launch the final mission by 900 (about a month later) and we would want both a decent time frame for the dreadnaught to be around and a gap between their deployment and the destroyers'.

So:

Fury: 550

Destroyer: 600

Carrier: 650

Dreadnaught: 700

Battleship: 800

Does this look about right?

[Max_Caine]

While I listen to calming music and hope the Sandman comes to visit, I will say that it's helpful to keep copies of earlier builds as I found in my copy of 18.3 the stats to the Dreadnaught and the Destroyer (did you know that Massive was the penultimate class size? The next step up is Enormous). I've updated aircrafts and aircraftweapons to incorporate the Destroyer as a test ufo. Here's some early videos.

First up what a Destroyer with a speed of 5000 looks like on the map.

[video=youtube;zPJYeHw8rrI]

Yow! Let's see that in slow motion!

[Max_Caine]

[video=youtube;6E7WdjZUYk8]

It would be very easy at that speed for a player to totally miss a Destroyer when a wave hits, as that thing speeds around like roadrunner on crack.

[Max_Caine]

Here's what some early fights would look like, with very basic weaponry on either side. Bear in mind this is not the kind of stuff the Destroyer would actually be facing, or is the Destroyer properly up-gunned yet.

[video=youtube;1aRY3daQHho]

[Max_Caine]

[video=youtube;-av4v4F3Iw8]

I'll try and put together a more advanced battle.

[dpelectric]

Great so far Max. But, of course, I don't think anybody will be foolish enough to engage Destroyers with Condors or Foxtrots. If they do, they'll learn not to real quick. I believe what we're going for is a Destroyer vs. combined squadrons of Marauders and Foxtrots, or maybe Marauders and Corsairs, which are the assets a player is likely to be fielding.

If you can tune it so a squadron of say two Marauders and one Foxtrot/Corsair has a chance of winning, or a single Marauder with two Foxtrots/Corsairs can soften the Destroyer up enough so a second squadron can finish it off, I would think that is roughly the correct balance point. The Destroyers need to be tough, to incentivize the X-120 and give them a solid chance of completing their mission (i.e. generation of a terror site).

If a Marauders airspeed is 3850, the Destroyers should be maybe somewhere around 4000? Or will this preclude a squadron slowed to a Foxtrot's speed from any chance at intercept? How many HP are you thinking of assigning the Destroyer? If plasma torps inflict 900 dmg, fusion 1200, a squadron of one Marauder + two Foxtrots should be able to deal in the range of 6000 dmg (not factoring in the Marauder's cannon, and assuming all six torps are launched).

[Max_Caine]

Here's a Destroyer being chased by Maurauders at the speeds you requested. Haven't toned down the 18.3 gun yet, the AC battle is just embarassing. Remember that the Destroyer as I've set it can roll, which signficantly reduces the autoresolve value of torpedoes (to nil). Maurauders can catch a Destroyer at that speed, provided the Destroyer takes the wrong turn.

[video=youtube;hKZrA8JzTJs]

[dpelectric]

That airspeed looked just about right, hard but not impossible to catch. However, that's with all Marauders. I don't think players at the ~500 ticker value will be fielding squadrons of three Marauders out of single bases yet. Would a squadron with also, say, a Corsair or a Foxtrot be able to intercept? Or do we want to keep it catchable by only X-59s?

Were you thinking of giving the Destroyer the roll ability (it seems like it) but having the Dreadnaught as a non-rolling, superhigh HP lumbering behemoth?

[Max_Caine]

That was my thought. The Destroyer is the captial ship that catches you out because WOHA DUDE THAT SHIP IS ROLLIN', but it would be the only capital ship that does that (so panic over when Carriers with a similar topology don't roll all over the place). Here's a vid of Corsairs trying to catch a Destroyer. (Queue Yakity Sax)

[video=youtube;Y6X6a3BZ4K8]

[TheD3rp]

I wouldn't have much of a problem with the destroyer rolling, as all you have to do is allow the fighters to only fire one torpedo, let the destroyer roll, and then fire all the other torpedoes while the roll is on cooldown.

[dpelectric]

Ok, so at that speed Foxtrot and Condor-containing squadrons would be unable to intercept.

At first thought, I personally like that idea. It's going to drive the player to building X-59s and/or an X-120, and give the Destroyer a high chance of completing its mission. Then, as the player gets more next-gen fighters in the air, he's rewarded by actually being able to catch/down some Destroyers. Then, just when he thinks he's relatively safe against Destroyers and Carriers, along come Dreadnaughts and Battleships

[Max_Caine]

I can provide the files I've used if anyone wants to have a fiddle - I hacked researches and manufactures as well as AMairsuperiority and AMresearch to allow destroyers to pop up quickly and for me to be able to build lots of each type of interceptor for test purposes.

[dpelectric]

I wouldn't have much of a problem with the destroyer rolling, as all you have to do is allow the fighters to only fire one torpedo, let the destroyer roll, and then fire all the other torpedoes while the roll is on cooldown.

Yes, exactly. But if the first torpedo is going to miss, the Destroyer's HP should be reduced by roughly that amount (~1000 HP). However, depending upon how Max balances close-in combat and the Destroyer's turning speed, a single Marauder's cannon is capable of inflicting 1200-1600 pts of dmg (plasma or MAG).

The question is, if only X-59s have the speed to intercept, will two Marauders be able to take down a Destroyer, or will it require three (together or chained)? A plasma Marauder can inflict 3000 dmg on full torp/cannon depletion, a fusion/MAG Marauder 4000. Assuming Max allows cannon engagement, that means two early-gen Marauders can deal 5000 pts max dmg (assuming one torp always misses) two later-gen 7000. If three X-59s, 8000 and 11,000.

That's a total potential range of 5000-11,000 lol.

[dpelectric]

I can provide the files I've used if anyone wants to have a fiddle - I hacked researches and manufactures as well as AMairsuperiority and AMresearch to allow destroyers to pop up quickly and for me to be able to build lots of each type of interceptor for test purposes.

Max: Hell yes. I'd love to be able to.

[Max_Caine]

Straight after I wrote that, the calming music I had been listening to finally took effect and I fell asleep. I'm now nowhere near my home computer, so I won't be able to do it until later.

[kabill]

The destroyer flies like a shark. I've only watched the first video, but the moment is rolls to the side and obliterates the Condors is amazing.

[Max_Caine]

Yeah, that was all 18.3 stuff as well. Looking at the 18.3 files, the Destroyer appears as the last interceptor type in air superiority, so I'm guessing it was supposed to appear around Carrier/Battleship time with an "OH YEAH!". I'm guessing no-one got as far as the Carrier before the Destroyer was taken out, or we'd hear cries of OP! OP!

[LtcWalker]

Would you guys please keep in mind not to change the difficulty of insane mode from insanely hard to impossible. This isn't but a humble request but i would love to play this mod and still enjoy the game on insane. From what I've heard until now this would result in atleast 1 continent lost per month, due to most of the interceptors hunting the new ships. I would advise to start balancing at insane and go down in steps so it wouldn't make insane completely impossible