Phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range?

[Max_Caine]

I've noticed on this board that there are quite a number of people who like guns. They respect them, are most likely to have handled some, may have handled many. There's a more than a few forumites with quite an in-depth knowledge of guns, the effects of various calibers and know the ins-and-outs of each "class" of gun.

Sadly, in Xenonauts like in most other X-Com-a-likes (with one specific series exception) the humble gun is often discarded as quickly as the research tree will let you! The higher tier weapons do it faster, harder, longer and stronger. Those brave souls who stick to their AKs because they know what holding an AK is like in real life get the shock of what's left of their life when BadAssAlienDude #1 kicks down the door, laughs as a squaddie empties half a mag into it, and turns the squaddies' skin into an attractive pair of custom leather boots.

Despite the knowledge that ultimately the bad guys are only going to get beat with spayse layzors, the suggestions still fly in (as they have flown in previously) on how to improve the humble gun. Through attachments. Through ammo types. Through a larger selection of guns. This is because we can empathise with and envisage the ballistic gun far better than we can a laser gun or a plasma caster. Thanks to our good friend physics, the gun has been the best way to conduct warfare for a good long while now. Military applications of the laser are still restricted to the testing ground. or as a support tool only. The particle-beam gun, a weapon that has seen jury service in UFO:Extraterrestrials is still nothing more than an exploratory proposal.

How does one engender the same kind of empathy in a weapon that hasn't escaped the test chamber or the television screen? I haven't seen on the forum anyone asking that laser pumps be upgradeable from chemical to X-Ray, or request a plasma toroidal modification to adjust the type of plasma produced. Will lasers and higher tech weapons always be and feel more sterile than the ballistic gun?

[thothkins]

good thread title and a good post. Yes, is my answer to that, outside mods. I think there's supposed to be a gosh wow factor in getting the advanced tech levels. So, there's probably not been much thought given to advancement within those levels.

Having said that, at present there's not much variation beyond the basic types of weapon in the first level too. Xenonauts goes a little further than previous versions in trying to make sure at least each of these types has a purpose within combat. A purpose that continues with the tech levels too, by the looks of things, so that's something.

[Buzzles]

Gonna be honest here, while having lots of things to play with is often nice, I often find they are not brilliantly balanced and even if they are you still end up finding and sticking with a small combination of weapons/equipment anyway due to either ease of use or effectiveness.

Personally, I'm rather happy with the current implementation of each weapon having a specific plus point and being balanced around that, rather than the above occuring in yet another game.

PS: Military lasers, your research isn't up to date. US Navy have working (solid state I think) shipborne laser due to enter full production in the next couple of years.

Said US Navy is also just finalising their ship mounted railgun as they seem to have at least partially solved the rail erosion problems.

[TrashMan]

Ya. Let's not forget - Newton is the deadlist sunovab*** in space.

Dunno if any of you guys heard of UFO:AI. It's a free X-Com like game and I pitch in and so some work on it. Initially the devs had no plans for high-end human weapons, but I went and modeled a coilgun sniper rifle anyway, added it to the game and forwarded the files to them. They added it to the game and it's currently the deadliest weapon in game in terms of sheer accuracy and power.

Never underestimate good old-fashioned tech. Effectiveness is all that matters.

[Animal Mother]

Sadly, in Xenonauts like in most other X-Com-a-likes (with one specific series exception) the humble gun is often discarded as quickly as the research tree will let you! The higher tier weapons do it faster, harder, longer and stronger. Those brave souls who stick to their AKs because they know what holding an AK is like in real life get the shock of what's left of their life when BadAssAlienDude #1 kicks down the door, laughs as a squaddie empties half a mag into it, and turns the squaddies' skin into an attractive pair of custom leather boots.

Its true that in UFO: EU I used to build a lot of laser rifles, not only because they didn't require any ammo, but because I generate income from selling a batch.

At the moment, Xeno' is not fully fleshed out, but whats been happening is that I would have two specialists equiped with laser weaponry, and my assault troops would have MGs (prefably with Wolf Armor as well) as they will be storming crash-sites and buildings.

The only ballistic weapon that I would get rid off as soon as possible is the Pistol and Shotgun, everything else I would use, even in late game.

[Buzzles]

As it's been bugging me, 40 watts is nothing.

40 Megawatts and we're cooking with gas. Well...plasma in this case.

[Max_Caine]

I'd take that up with Governor Schwartzenigger were I you, Buzzles.

[Leonatus]

hm, one possibility would be a special ammo made from alien alloys that would up power and range of the guns.

The need to manufacture them first and their continuous drain on limited resources would then keep them from pushing laser weapons aside.

Also it would be very easy to put the special ammo into the game as there is no requirement of new models. Only a picture and some text.

[Guest]

I believe there are electromagnetic rail guns (or the equivalent) for one of the weapon tiers.

[Gorlom]

Could be fun to have divergent weapon technology. Going down one path excludes the other, either by forcefully blocking the other path or by time restraint so you don't have time to research both.

One path is to upgrade ballistic technology: guass, railgun, masseffect (darn copyright infringement!! ) and standard human tech (in no particular order). One path is energy technology: lasers, plasma and whatever one can come up with as third.. warp technology perhaps? (think that one is stolen from the after* series)

It could enhance replayability assuming an interesting and balanced dynamic between different enemies having vulnerabilities to either the energy based weapons or the ballistic weapons. Going down one tree means a difference in which aliens are the most dangerous compared to the other tree.

As fun as I think this would be I don't really see it making it ingame and hold no illusion that others would enjoy it as much as me.

[thothkins]

I was hoping that this would make it into the game as it's part of the original EU. Well, it was for me anyway. At the start you would have the option of medikits or laser technology. saving soldiers lives or giving them more effective damage. There mostly wasn't time to research them both before the first mission came up. Then you had a number of research options - alloys for ships and armour or elerium for other uses. So, there was always a pressure on the R&D that meant choices had to be made.

I just assumed it was a balancing issue in XNauts that meant I had researched everything within the first week (in earlier builds). I'd be a little disapointed to find out otherwise.

I'd prefer that to artificial barriers on research. Although there was discussion about each project requiring certain specialised equipment for the labs. There would be additional time issues if this had to be removed for a different project stream. If it was a continuation of the same research stream then this would be reduced. Each lab can only support a certain amount of equipment at any time, limiting the number of parallel project available without penalty.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

How does one engender the same kind of empathy in a weapon that hasn't escaped the test chamber or the television screen? I haven't seen on the forum anyone asking that laser pumps be upgradeable from chemical to X-Ray, or request a plasma toroidal modification to adjust the type of plasma produced. Will lasers and higher tech weapons always be and feel more sterile than the ballistic gun?

In principle I support this sort of thing, although in practice it may end up adding unnecessary complexity that doesn't actually improve the game. Also, as a technical note, "upgrade from chemical to X-Ray" doesn't make much sense because "chemical" refers to the method by which a laser is produced, whereas "X-Ray" refers to the wavelength of the beam, so it's apples-to-oranges there.

[Max_Caine]

You are right, ThoseDeafMutes, I should have said perhaps visible light to X-Ray, as opposed to saying chemical to nuclear-pumped.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Alright, I've been idly thinking about this for the past ten minutes or so, specifically regarding laser weapons.

Depending on how deep you wanted to make the system, you could have the laser weapons vary by wavelength without strictly being linear progression. Different materials react differently to the various wavelengths in question, so the armor on Alien species X may take half damage from visible-wavelength lasers, while Alien species Y may take normal damage from it. A superior upgraded laser could be a "wavelength agile" device, meaning that it can alter the wavelength of the beam it fires, so you could switch the wavelength that your soldiers are using during combat in the same way that an ordinary rifle might switch firing-modes. A final upgrade (going waaaay into the speculative side of things here) would be a wavelength-agile laser which can itself perform spectral analysis of the target prior to firing to determine the best wavelength for that material.

I'd prefer that to artificial barriers on research. Although there was discussion about each project requiring certain specialised equipment for the labs. There would be additional time issues if this had to be removed for a different project stream. If it was a continuation of the same research stream then this would be reduced. Each lab can only support a certain amount of equipment at any time, limiting the number of parallel project available without penalty.

You could even make it something to do with taking advantage of dedicated facilities located in different countries. Like if you were in good standing with Europe, you could get access to CERN facilities for advanced particle accelerator research. The Americas might have specialized facilities for some other kind of research (I dunno, fusion or something). It's alternate history so you can go a bit crazy and possibly invoke the Iceland incident or previously-unknown captured (or excavated) Alien technology to justify these facilities.

Edited June 25, 2012 by ThoseDeafMutes

[Haba]

OP raises some decent points actually. New research should always have a degree of human scientific achievement in them, instead of merely learning how to reproduce alien engineering.

First fumbling steps at reverse-engineering being inferior to alien tech (potentially failing more often, blowing up in the arms of your soldiers etc.), second generation slowly overcoming those limitations and eventually even surpassing the aliens. There is a race for survival, so in that sense the desperate race on science side as well would fit to the theme well.

Personally would love to see a noticeable "human touch" in the alien technology Xenonauts use - some rather obvious additions to the weapons that make them human usable (and some light fluff to go along). Eventually we could even see some late game technology that is exclusively human - combining both the new learnings from alien technology as the thousands of years of human engineering tradition.

None of this is naturally very high priority, but would sure help to make the game unique.

[TrashMan]

IHMO, the research costs should be higher in the final game. Breezing trough researhc should be a no-no, even if you have a 100 scientists working on it.

Personaly, I'd add a minimal research time to every research item, and no matter how mmuch money and people you throw at the problem, you can't go lower than that.

[TrashMan]

IHMO, the research costs should be higher in the final game. Breezing trough researhc should be a no-no, even if you have a 100 scientists working on it.

Personaly, I'd add a minimal research time to every research item, and no matter how mmuch money and people you throw at the problem, you can't go lower than that.

[thothkins]

second generation slowly overcoming those limitations and eventually even surpassing the aliens

My point here kind of depends on the reasons for the alien invasion. If the aliens are simply scavengers or come form a bloated, dying colonial empire then I don't take issue with the above.

However, if the aliens are a collection of races who have forged an empire through endless warfare, absorbing races into their ranks as they go, then I'd prefer to always see the aliens one step ahead.

This leads to and end game where humanity has to tackle them at source because they will not be able to hold on forever. In X-Com you need never have gone to Cydonia. You could just sit and intercept UFOs and win the combats with Blaster Bombs and Psi Amps.

In the back story, the aliens are already capable of adapting to their new environment. They are altering their craft to enter the atmosphere. I'[d like to think that their tactics could also evolve. Perhaps reacting to the palyer's actions is beyond the scope of the game, but at least they should stay ahead on a technological basis.

Psionics is an example of that. Humans can perhaps build devices to limit the effects of Alien psionics, but they will not be able to use psionics themselves.

[Dresarian]

Personally would love to see a noticeable "human touch" in the alien technology Xenonauts use - some rather obvious additions to the weapons that make them human usable (and some light fluff to go along). Eventually we could even see some late game technology that is exclusively human - combining both the new learnings from alien technology as the thousands of years of human engineering tradition.

.

That would actually look pretty cool. Energy weapons with Picatinny rails and Eotech style optics. Laser rifle with an underslung M203, perhaps? =)