so I just flew over a field in a chinook and I have no idea where the nearest...

ThunderGr, while you're at it care to elaborate on this:

> In the same way some players will carry exactly enough equipment to gain strength every mission and will run twice round the Chinook to guarantee AP gains and shoot pistols at disarmed enemies to gain accuracy.

How the heck do you disarm an enemy? Does that AP gain trick actually work?

(I realize it's not your post that I'm quoting)

ThunderGr, while you're at it care to elaborate on this:

> In the same way some players will carry exactly enough equipment to gain strength every mission and will run twice round the Chinook to guarantee AP gains and shoot pistols at disarmed enemies to gain accuracy.

How the heck do you disarm an enemy? Does that AP gain trick actually work?

(I realize it's not your post that I'm quoting)

I think enemies can drop their weapons when panicking, but I have not encountered such a thing in the game so far.

And, yes, that training thing by going around max TUs at full equipment works for both TU and Strength.

Sgt Thothkins is the expert on such exploits, though.

Hilarious, didn't know that "trick". Guess they don't run much in the base.

One way to have a bit of both is to have a sketch map of the area at the start but keep the battlemap in FOW. e.g. You'd know there's a building ahead of you somewhere but you wouldn't know how tall or what was inside.

there is nothing to discuss, funboys provide "nostalgy" and "lazy" as arguments...

bad design decision made in 94 cannot be called feature today.

...

bad design decision made in 94 cannot be called feature today.

That's your opinion, others, like me, think it was a brilliant one. It helped to give the game that X-Files feeling of the unknown and general spookiness.

I look at the battlescape as an abstract conceit. It crushes all of the mission elements together in the space of a few streets just to keep it interesting for the player. That way:-

You don't have to spend an hour travelling 2 miles across the map to the UFO to get into position.

The game kindly prevents the alien craft firing any of the weapons you saw in the interception at the Chinook.

The aliens don't just see the Chinook coming in 2 streets away and sit waiting for it.

As for the FOW itself. If I could see the map:-

I'd go straight for the UFO in all occasions. Even if I knew other aliens would come in behind me, it will be a lot easier defending my position from inside/ around the indestructible UFO, with a full squad, with it's doors closed each turn, than it would be with a scattered squad out there on the map. Only the safest path to the UFO and the UFO itself would be of any tactical interest.

There are no secondary objectives on the map, no scientists/ politicians to rescue or artefacts to find, so there's just no need to split up the squad.

Missions would be a lot shorter. X turns to the UFO + Y turns to hold it. No Z turns investigating the map, and C turns bringing everyone into position for various actions.

Yes, you would have to be cautious as you can't see the aliens. But only cautious along your safest path to the UFO. Yes, there would be that X-Com level of suspense in wondering if the next corner is going to have an alien around it. But then, it's only a concern for a certain amount of the map.

Resistance would be less also, as each alien encountered is up against a full squad as opposed to the fire teams it's up against now. So possibly a little less suspense and caution.

An extension of the "Why can't I see the Map" is "Why can't I get an idea of where the aliens are?" Leaving my own abstract thing behind, if the Chinook really was landing all of a block away, then I'd be able to spot aliens going into buildings, civilians running around in panic, explosions, and open defensive positions too. Enough to know some parts of the map to be cautious in, particularly the ones getting me from the Chinook straight to the UFO.

There's a potential balance to increasing the lost points for losing civilians and local forces. In practice, it could still be the better option of ending the mission quickly by holding that UFO for 5 turns. Locals on the edges of the map would be left alone by aliens having to drop back to defend the UFO. If the AI says that protecting the UFO is more important than wasting a turn killing a local, then they are safer still. Locals near the UFO would have increased protection of a full squad firing from within, or around the UFO.

ThunderGr made an interesting point about aliens killing all locals if the player secures the UFO and completes the mission that way. There were posts ages ago about the effects of escaping aliens on funding.

In terms of the mission, I'd still go and take out the UFO first. Having achieved the mission objective, I would then decide if I wanted to bother with the civilians. As it stands, no I wouldn't as there's not enough of a points loss to bother. If I've taken a few hits along the way to securing the UFO, then I'm even less likely. Then there's the urge to get back into the next mission, so again, I'm a little more likely not to bother.

If you increase the points loss for each local, then they become almost too important in the context of saving the entire planet. Who would have thought that Mrs Jones from no. 23 Arcadia Avenue was so vitally important to the future of humanity? It's also forcing me back out into a map I've already gone across to bug hunt, if I want to maximise the mission points.

Then there's the chance I'll spend 5 turns or more on a large UFO legitimately trying to clear it out. Game over without me having any option. So a option screen would have to be added there.

Sgt Thothkins is the expert on such exploits, though.

Sgt thothkins: Right lads! We've made it straight to the UFO. Since there's no point exploring the map, we'll just have to run round the UFO for a couple of turns to get that strength up. Now Go!

there is nothing to discuss, funboys provide "nostalgy" and "lazy" as arguments...

bad design decision made in 94 cannot be called feature today.

I do not think the term funboys applies. I am the one and only fanboy! Who seems to want to isult the putrid scum that wish to have the map reavealed for me! At least use my name when calling me a fanboy good sir!

I want to hear your definition of feature

This is the dictionary definition

Noun

A distinctive attribute or aspect of something.

I find that features is more of a negative term seeing as so many block buster games staple features in based on trends.

I prefer to use the word mechanics as mechanics can click together with other mechanics.

I do not think the term funboys applies. I am the one and only fanboy!

Hey, I am a fanboy, as well . You are not the only one. In fact, I believe most of the people here fit the description .

The issue will, most likely, be solved with a setting about the shroud. To be honest, in all games that have this setting, I always choose to leave the shroud on as it provides more challenge, despite of what would be the more realistic thing to do. As it is now, removal of the shroud would make things much easier. I would really like to see incentives for people to explore the map, other than trying to find the UFO, without compelling them to kill all aliens to complete the mission. I think many good ideas have been provided without them being difficult to implement.

its single case\switch\if construct and single line changed, map already filled with black mast, nothing prevent to fill it with graymask.

I think the win if you sit in the UFO for 5 turns is a bad winning condition though. Just because you sit in it doesn't mean the aliens are going to go away. You will not be able to haul it out of there until you get rid of the aliens. So I really think that the mission should be to kill all aliens. That's a kill and gather resources mission. Then there could be other missions where other win conditions could apply.

But if I can always win by sitting in the UFO, then that is what everyone would do. Keep the team together, don't bother with civilians, just stay close, find the UFO, and squat in it.

Doesn't sound so fun anymore.

I would really like to see incentives for people to explore the map, other than trying to find the UFO, without compelling them to kill all aliens to complete the mission.

Some further mission objectives and types that perhaps can provide a few other ideas to promote exploration.

I think the win if you sit in the UFO for 5 turns is a bad winning condition though. Just because you sit in it doesn't mean the aliens are going to go away. You will not be able to haul it out of there until you get rid of the aliens. So I really think that the mission should be to kill all aliens.

Agreed. Get rid of the "hold" option, show the general outline of the map when you get off the chinook, problem solved.

some improvement to AI to allow alliens actually defend UFO and increased amount of alliens on map will make UFO defence really hard if area not cleaned up before taking UFO.

this will allow player to decide - take ufo ASAP and meet massive assault from enemy forces or kill enemy units one by one.

currently ground combat provide no options to player, this is not right.

Well, in this case the Alien command is incompetent. There is no way you travel this distance to invade a planet without having an invasion plan. Disrupting communications, eliminating defense systems, space bombardments and having tactical air combat ships prepared are essential. Besides, the type of the UFO crafts(the way they operate) does not require aerodynamic designs. They use electromagnetic propulsion systems which work everywhere, no matter what density is the atmosphere. You cannot travel through space and not have the engineering knowledge and technology to have prepared a fleet of ships that can operate within the atmosphere of your target planet. While we give them so much credit for their technology and combat abilities, we accept them being tactically and strategically incompetent.

My theory is that the aliens' data were accurate, but outdated by 100 years or so. They never accounted for interceptors, radars and SAM stations... They expected to be fighting cavalry.

I think the win if you sit in the UFO for 5 turns is a bad winning condition though. Just because you sit in it doesn't mean the aliens are going to go away. You will not be able to haul it out of there until you get rid of the aliens. So I really think that the mission should be to kill all aliens. That's a kill and gather resources mission. Then there could be other missions where other win conditions could apply.

But if I can always win by sitting in the UFO, then that is what everyone would do. Keep the team together, don't bother with civilians, just stay close, find the UFO, and squat in it.

Doesn't sound so fun anymore.

The point of that objective is so you can't get stuck spending dozens of turns hunting for one alien hiding in a closet out on the map somewhere, which isn't fun. Currently the aliens won't try to retake their ship, it should be more interesting once the AI is upgraded so they return to try to retake the ship.

some improvement to AI to allow alliens actually defend UFO and increased amount of alliens on map will make UFO defence really hard if area not cleaned up before taking UFO.

this will allow player to decide - take ufo ASAP and meet massive assault from enemy forces or kill enemy units one by one.

currently ground combat provide no options to player, this is not right.

Yeah agreed, right now the UFO defenders AI is borked, they just sit patiently la lal la waiting for you to get ready for a perfect entrance, and there are only a few (early on). In future builds, the aliens around the map will come charging back to the ship, the questions are;

Will they wait for you to secure it first?

Will they come running as soon as the guys inside are aware of you?

Or will the team inside coordinate with the flankers outside and charge out and catch you in a pincher?

I hope the last two

The point of that objective is so you can't get stuck spending dozens of turns hunting for one alien hiding in a closet out on the map somewhere, which isn't fun. Currently the aliens won't try to retake their ship, it should be more interesting once the AI is upgraded so they return to try to retake the ship.

The maps aren't really that big that you can't easily find them all. That's how I play all the time, I don't sit in the UFO. And if you turn it around then, you want enhanced AI so that they defend the UFO. Sounds like you want to turn it into a Tower defense scenario. Not what I find fun either.

The aliens should communicate and react to what they find out. If they spot you, they should call in their friends. Defending a crashed UFO really isn't the best survival strategy. It's like telling a shot down airforce pilot to find his shot down aircraft, and wait by it until picked up.

They know you're coming because you don't miss a Chinook approaching, they're not exactly quiet. They should lay in ambush.

So yes, I STILL believe a discovered map is the best scenario, with a FoW. What needs some work is the AI, and perhaps more cover on the maps that aliens and you can use.

I'm just saying it's a ridiculous bit of "gameplay over logic".

You mean gameplay over simulation. Perfect simulation is not the goal of any game. Except perhaps Dwarf Fortress .

As others have said, "gaminess" that adds to the enjoyment is not a bad thing. I personally enjoy searching for the UFO.

you enjoy wasting time i am not, this is good reason to add gameplay option, since any other decision will make one side unhappy.

Rawcode I really do not think restateing your opionion for the 10th time will change the devs opinion or even bring the topic up again.

it will bring topic up again, but devs opinion cannot be changed this way.

everything actually very simple, if devs does not allow me to know UFO location - i will make mod and publish it, soo everyone who share my opinion will recieve what they want.

also there is completely no reason to discuss anything on this forum, fanboys will swarm with "shoud be done like original game, nostalgy and other BS", there is completely no other agrument why game shoud not allow this as difficulty option or gameplay option.

Actually as despicable as this sound I believe there are a few fanboys on your side. I do believe a mod is a smart idea props.

mod only possible solution in current case.

The maps aren't really that big that you can't easily find them all. That's how I play all the time, I don't sit in the UFO. And if you turn it around then, you want enhanced AI so that they defend the UFO. Sounds like you want to turn it into a Tower defense scenario. Not what I find fun either.

The aliens should communicate and react to what they find out. If they spot you, they should call in their friends. Defending a crashed UFO really isn't the best survival strategy. It's like telling a shot down airforce pilot to find his shot down aircraft, and wait by it until picked up.

They know you're coming because you don't miss a Chinook approaching, they're not exactly quiet. They should lay in ambush.

So yes, I STILL believe a discovered map is the best scenario, with a FoW. What needs some work is the AI, and perhaps more cover on the maps that aliens and you can use.

No, I have no interest in playing a tower defense game. I do however have an interest in playing a game where the AI essentially communicates with itself and any remaining aliens team up to assault you from the rear once you start trying to take their downed craft. That sounds like potentially a lot of fun, and a challenge but we'll see how it pans out once the AI reaches that point.

@Rawcode - Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them a blind fanboy.