Play on after Operation Endgame?

[KevinHann]

Some of my buddies mentioned the X-Com games gave the player the freedom to play on after the final mission (I wouldn't know as I never played those) so I was thinking if this option would be possible for Xenonauts, too? Or is it too late for throwing it in the mix?

[kabill]

This definitely wasn't the case in either X-Com: EU or TFTD.

In any case, since you get to choose when you do the final mission, you can always simply choose not to and keep playing indefinitely. It would be functionally equivalent, anyway.

[KevinHann]

If that is the case I apologize, perhaps I was mislead.

Follow-up question then, is there a time limit meaning if you postpone the final mission indefinitely the game will eventually result in a loss no matter how well you are doing?

[kabill]

If that is the case I apologize, perhaps I was mislead.

It's quite possible this was the case in some of the later XCOM clones. I never played them so I don't know, but maybe they were referring to those?

Follow-up question then, is there a time limit meaning if you postpone the final mission indefinitely the game will eventually result in a loss no matter how well you are doing?

Not so far as I know. So long as you're able to keep on top of the invasion, you can keep playing forever. Not sure the invasion ramps up any further after a certain point, though, so the difficulty would level off at some point.

(There's a mod idea in there, I think. Remove the final mission and have the invasion keep scaling up. The objective isn't to win but to hold out as long as you can!)

[KevinHann]

(There's a mod idea in there, I think. Remove the final mission and have the invasion keep scaling up. The objective isn't to win but to hold out as long as you can!)

Yup, that would be interesting. Especially if tied with some further story/gameplay additions to enhance the feeling of the invasion growing and growing instead of just passing a certain critical point beyond which the player is on top.

Do you think adding further UFO's or at least changing the number/type of aliens in specific class of UFO's as the game progresses are possible without the source code?

That being said, I'd literally kill for a 2 or max 3 floor versions of the Carriers and Battleships!

[kabill]

You can definitely do the former. The number of UFOs is already set to increase as the game progresses, although sadly the exact way that's calculated is not clear from the game file.

UFO crews can be modded, but aren't dynamic. Each UFO/mission type combination has a set crew list. You can work around it slightly by setting larger UFOs to more mission types (which is more or less how the game works at the moment), but you'd be stuck with being constantly spammed by top-tier UFOs at some point if you wanted to use that as a solution.

The best thing I can think of to make this work is up the difficulty of higher level UFOs significantly, and gradually ease them in to the mission pools. I've worked out a method that you can randomise the UFOs which spawn for particular mission types, so that would allow more granularity over the introduction of UFOs and allow the end game to play out over a longer period of time.

[KevinHann]

There is a lot to be discussed there, kabill. I would love to have specific large UFOs which are nearly impossible to gun down unless you control your squadron remarkably well (no auto-combat solutions though!) and have these establish bases/terror attacks. It would help maintain variety over the latter stages of the game while also enforcing the theme of an alien invasion doomsday - you may be perfect but there is only so much you can do.

I mean seriously, a few months after being totally overwhelmed technologically, humanity comes up with super weapons much better than whatever the aliens can throw at them? The latter game stage feel should be one of growing despair, not total dominance of the defenders - at least that's how I see it. Feel free to disagree, of course!

[kabill]

No, no, I think in principle I'd prefer a grittier, more desperate feeling game than Xenonauts is at the moment. I'm not sure it would work well for the vanilla game, as I think it would put people off playing. But it's perfectly serviceable as a mod idea (and is more or less the framework for a mod I have pencilled out already, if I have chance to actually implement it post-release).

[KevinHann]

Sounds good, mate, I'll be looking forward to this mod for sure!

I'd say the vanilla would only gain from keeping up the challenge until the very end though - probably being constantly on the verge of defeat is a step too far although the current "build enough top tier interceptors and smash'em" is definitely putting me off as it leaves me feeling there is nothing more to do than just going through repetitive motions waiting for a conclusion.

[Commissar Pancakes]

If I remember correctly, it's not so much as UBERSHIPS HAVE COME TO F*CK YOU UP so much as OH GOD ALL THE SHIPS. Alien Battleships are their strongest, but I think the plan was to have larger and larger waves attack, utterly swamping your defenses, thereby forcing you to take the final mission.

[KevinHann]

That's alright Commisar Pancakes although it does make sense if the strongest alien ships were way too powerful for whatever humanity could throw at them after six months of reverse-engineering the technology of shot-down smaller UFOs and at least required exceptional skill and a large portion of luck to be downed.

At the moment it sounds as if we were able to not only understand this uber-galaxy empire's tech in some measly several months while under heavy siege but also upgrade it beyond their ability to respond and counter our oh-so-awesome new toys. They can't be that advanced if a crazy scientist is able to outbrain them in such a short while

[jonny211]

They can't be that advanced if a crazy scientist is able to outbrain them in such a short while

Haven't you seen Independence Day? Interstellar locusts defeated by Win3.1

[KevinHann]

Haven't you seen Independence Day? Interstellar locusts defeated by Win3.1

Did Will Smith pilot a quickly assembled black hole tech based interceptor which was much more devastating than anything the aliens could throw at him though? I missed that part in the movie

Point taken though, it's a matter of tone and personal preference.

[Victor_Tadeu]

Yeah... I think every XCom and his pupils missed that part. The aliens passively watchs you steal their tech and improve it to the point you outperforms them in every way. Since I love long gameplays, would be awesome to see in a XCom-like game whats used to be the late game, only be the mid game. After some point the aliens also starts to bring new stuff, like in an arms race, and you fight them head-to-head to see who will keep the edge.

Of course after some time of gameplay the techs will run out and you are left with nothing else new to see, but it could be futher ahead in the game. A sequence of phases more-like:

1: Aliens starts with small recon missions on Earth, you are also forced to start small since no one is certain of the size of the threat

2: The aliens starts to bring their first invasion forces, global awareness also rises and you start to be pushed up

3: Aliens meets unexpected resistance and rush to bring more resources from their home planets (just like USA in Vietnam), meanwhile the humans gets the upper hand and starts to boost their tech. (non-scifi, just imagine every weapon concept that we know today being immediately applied like RL near future guns, gauss rifles, eletromagnetics instead of gunpowder, etc, things that we know that are possible in the near-future)

4: Aliens starts to deploy their finest, humans advantage shrinks* as they start to get overwhelmed by alien numbers of high tech stuff.

*generally XCom games end arounds here, but with the humans overwhelming the passive aliens and taking their planet. But what if...

5: Humans cant keep up with the aliens and starts to lose territory (at this point of the game you are suppose to lose lots of continents and bases)

6: Alien occupation is a reality in most Earth, XCom/Xenonauts become almost a clandestine operation and starts to use guerrila tactics, while developing "sci-fi" weapons with techs learned from the aliens (laser, plasma, energy weapons, etc)

7:The friction war starts to become heavy to the alien side, both by atrittion with XCom/Xeno and local population/military forces (since they are the ones bringing personnel and resources from far away to occupy a whole planet). For the first time XCom/Xeno starts to deploy stuff more advanced that the one of the aliens or at least of the same tier.

8: Previously occupied areas starts to be cleared from alien occupation (the player starts to retake continents and fundings). Alien starts to learn with human new techs and starts to do minor improvements to they own.

9: Humans begins to master the alien travel tech and start to pose a threat to alien home lands, not just invading forces. Aliens starts to realize they may be in great danger.

10: Aliens starts to deploy totally new stuffs to counter human advancements, both races engage in a tech race, with both planes being targets of operations, both fighting for their lifes.

11: The humans starts to get the upper hand (since they are the player and you are supposed to) and starts to occupy/destroy the alien planet infrastructure. Aliens throws whatever they can find, making the late game a mix of easy fights against outdated equipment and hard battles against superior tech.

12: Humans occupy/destroy the alien planet and win the war.

The game will be punishing, but not like "you lost something forever" punishing like Xcom/Xeno is with continents. Early game should be kinda easy, while mid game would be a matter of fighting for survival while the aliens spend their resources and you develop better stuff. Late game is when the shit get serious and you start to try to retake fallen territories and both the human player and the AI fight each other in more or less equal terms. The difficulty curve of XCom games is preserved (easy start, very hard midgame and balanced late game).

I think this is the perfect and most obvious plots to a modern XCom game instead of repeating the older formula over and over again (throw at it a little of international politics like nations fighting each other for resources, pro-alien human guerrilla, rival anti-aliens organizations, etc, and it's perfect!). I think the indie Xeno is on the right path 'cause they first tried to do something better in almost every point than the original game with limited funds. What bothers is the AAA XCom: EU remake that dont plays nothing like the original game and even lacks content from it, just having better graphics and dont going further in any aspect at all from the OG. It's so freaking shallow.

The game that, I think, get closer to that "enhanced" plot was XCom apocalypse, since in late game you really starts to invade the alien planet and do missions to destroy their infrastructure. The problem is that the aliens dont scale up neither in tactics or tech... XCom:Apoc late game is a boring alien bashing thing with repetitive missions since you became so much better than them, both in resources/tech and individual soldier capabilities. (still my favorite XCom)

Edited May 23, 2014 by Victor_Tadeu

[MrPyro]

Haven't you seen Independence Day? Interstellar locusts defeated by Win3.1

It was MacOS actually.

[KevinHann]

Yeah... I think every XCom and his pupils missed that part. The aliens passively watchs you steal their tech and improve it to the point you outperforms them in every way. Since I love long gameplays, would be awesome to see in a XCom-like game whats used to be the late game, only be the mid game. After some point the aliens also starts to bring new stuff, like in an arms race, and you fight them head-to-head to see who will keep the edge.

Of course after some time of gameplay the techs will run out and you are left with nothing else new to see, but it could be futher ahead in the game. A sequence of phases more-like:

1: Aliens starts with small recon missions on Earth, you are also forced to start small since no one is certain of the size of the threat

2: The aliens starts to bring their first invasion forces, global awareness also rises and you start to be pushed up

3: Aliens meets unexpected resistance and rush to bring more resources from their home planets (just like USA in Vietnam), meanwhile the humans gets the upper hand and starts to boost their tech. (non-scifi, just imagine every weapon concept that we know today being immediately applied like RL near future guns, gauss rifles, eletromagnetics instead of gunpowder, etc, things that we know that are possible in the near-future)

4: Aliens starts to deploy their finest, humans advantage shrinks* as they start to get overwhelmed by alien numbers of high tech stuff.

*generally XCom games end arounds here, but with the humans overwhelming the passive aliens and taking their planet. But what if...

5: Humans cant keep up with the aliens and starts to lose territory (at this point of the game you are suppose to lose lots of continents and bases)

6: Alien occupation is a reality in most Earth, XCom/Xenonauts become almost a clandestine operation and starts to use guerrila tactics, while developing "sci-fi" weapons with techs learned from the aliens (laser, plasma, energy weapons, etc)

7:The friction war starts to become heavy to the alien side, both by atrittion with XCom/Xeno and local population/military forces (since they are the ones bringing personnel and resources from far away to occupy a whole planet). For the first time XCom/Xeno starts to deploy stuff more advanced that the one of the aliens or at least of the same tier.

8: Previously occupied areas starts to be cleared from alien occupation (the player starts to retake continents and fundings). Alien starts to learn with human new techs and starts to do minor improvements to they own.

9: Humans begins to master the alien travel tech and start to pose a threat to alien home lands, not just invading forces. Aliens starts to realize they may be in great danger.

10: Aliens starts to deploy totally new stuffs to counter human advancements, both races engage in a tech race, with both planes being targets of operations, both fighting for their lifes.

11: The humans starts to get the upper hand (since they are the player and you are supposed to) and starts to occupy/destroy the alien planet infrastructure. Aliens throws whatever they can find, making the late game a mix of easy fights against outdated equipment and hard battles against superior tech.

12: Humans occupy/destroy the alien planet and win the war.

The game will be punishing, but not like "you lost something forever" punishing like Xcom/Xeno is with continents. Early game should be kinda easy, while mid game would be a matter of fighting for survival while the aliens spend their resources and you develop better stuff. Late game is when the shit get serious and you start to try to retake fallen territories and both the human player and the AI fight each other in more or less equal terms. The difficulty curve of XCom games is preserved (easy start, very hard midgame and balanced late game).

I think this is the perfect and most obvious plots to a modern XCom game instead of repeating the older formula over and over again (throw at it a little of international politics like nations fighting each other for resources, pro-alien human guerrilla, rival anti-aliens organizations, etc, and it's perfect!). I think the indie Xeno is on the right path 'cause they first tried to do something better in almost every point than the original game with limited funds. What bothers is the AAA XCom: EU remake that dont plays nothing like the original game and even lacks content from it, just having better graphics and dont going further in any aspect at all from the OG. It's so freaking shallow.

The game that, I think, get closer to that "enhanced" plot was XCom apocalypse, since in late game you really starts to invade the alien planet and do missions to destroy their infrastructure. The problem is that the aliens dont scale up neither in tactics or tech... XCom:Apoc late game is a boring alien bashing thing with repetitive missions since you became so much better than them, both in resources/tech and individual soldier capabilities. (still my favorite XCom)

Yup, some pretty good discussion points there, I've been thinking in similar terms. I'd also add humanity will unlikely be an unified resistant mass if an invasion occurs and there is a lot of interesting ideas to explore in that direction.