A modest proposal why the Corsair loadout needs to change.

[mangalores]

...

We already can't seem to find a truly useful role for one plane, I don't think adding another one back into the mix would improve that situation. We'd probably just end up with two planes we don't build instead of just one.

...

The problem with the one plane is that it's the one that gets replaced by a better allrounder. If you specialize you need enough specializations, not essentially just one general purpose replacement (not counting the Fury which is a bit a super weapon). If the Marauder couldn't dogfight and you have a superior dogfighter coming after the Marauer you'd give a greater halflife to the Corsair instead of the Marauder being the immediate top fighter for everything. You obviously could also switch around, have the Saracen be the next as a long range interceptor and the Marauder still be the supreme dogfighter later on. That doesn't matter.

In essence keep the MIG/Condor divide, thus you need a torpedo pendant to the Corsair instead of a replacement of all other types immediately afterwards coming before the Corsair has even become necessary ( as heavy fighters and interceptors aren't that common when a Corsair becomes available).

[Gauddlike]

The Marauder is the best aircraft because it can do everything.

It has heavy missiles which are by far the best weapon in the majority of situations according to the auto resolve but also has a cannon so it also has half the auto resolve strength (ARS) of the Corsair weapon loadout just for those rare occasions where the missiles are negated.

Plus it also has almost double the base ARS of the Corsair just for the air frame so its total ARS is comparable even when it is at its weakest.

I think they need to be balanced in manual combat before their ARS values can be properly set.

Rather than adding another aircraft back in you could remedy the situation you mention just by reducing the dogfighting capability of the Marauder.

The Corsair then becomes the top dogfighter with the Marauder coming along later as the top ranged fighter.

The progression is then Condor (dogfighter), Foxtrot (ranged), Corsair (dogfighter), Marauder (ranged).

Then you just need to make sure the Corsair is better than the Condor and useful for the rest of the game.

The Marauder just needs to be better than the Foxtrot and useful for the rest of the game.

As long as both roles have some use then both types of craft will settle into them and it should be easier to find the balance.

Maybe the Marauder should replace its cannon with a light missile launcher?

[mangalores]

...

Rather than adding another aircraft back in you could remedy the situation you mention just by reducing the dogfighting capability of the Marauder....

Well, it is kind of nice to have the top of the line be an allrounder good at everything. That's where I'm coming from when suggesting to have another specialized craft in between. Other than that the current Corsair is only on the level of a Foxtrot which also limits its necessity to those old craft.

[Gauddlike]

My personal preference is to have two different aircraft with complementary roles, kind of how armour is supposed to work on the ground, but I see where you are coming from.

Just throwing ideas out to see if anything comes from them.

[crusherven]

My personal preference is to have two different aircraft with complementary roles, kind of how armour is supposed to work on the ground, but I see where you are coming from.

Just throwing ideas out to see if anything comes from them.

Same. Making decisions about how many of each aircraft type to maintain and send on sorties is fun, IMO. I mean, an "ultimate" craft is nice, but I think mostly I just got used to it in the OG. My initial reaction was disappointment that the firestorm et al were essentially useless.

[Gauddlike]

Wonder if anyone ever used the Lightning in the OG for anything other than a bit of variation.

I built one a couple of times but only because I was a little bored and wanted to do something different.

The problem with a single craft that is the best at everything, or even that is just good enough at everything, is that it is the only thing people will bother to use.

Other x-com style games have had multiple weapon types with strengths and weaknesses against different enemies but in the end most people just use the one type that is generally good against everything and hopefully weakest against nothing.

The same is true of the aircraft in Xenonauts, especially once people have played once or twice.

If you know that you can make do with Condors and Foxtrots until you can replace both with the Marauder it doesn't really matter how many different options you put in between those two points.

Most players will wait and just build Marauders.

To get people to invest in different aircraft they need to see the roles of those craft as being distinct and useful.

If the Condor can be replaced by the Corsair without the Corsair being overshadowed by the Marauder then people will build it.

If not then why waste scarce funds in building a second rate fighter that you will soon be getting rid of anyway.

[Caaygun]

The general theme of Xenonauts seems to be 'Upgrade' instead of 'Roles'. This is more evident in GC weapons and armor as well. When you get the next tier, it is just a level-up and the old ones can go to trash. Aircraft too, are only so varied because engine allows so much variation. We complained corsair having the same loadout as the condor so it was pointless to build it, so that's the reason it got its two cannons. It can only possibly have either 2 cannons, 4 missiles, or 1 cannon 2 missile. All interceptors have the same upkeep as well, so there is no reason to keep that condor with 30 kills under its belt for keepsake after you get corsair.

[mangalores]

...

To get people to invest in different aircraft they need to see the roles of those craft as being distinct and useful.

If the Condor can be replaced by the Corsair without the Corsair being overshadowed by the Marauder then people will build it.

If not then why waste scarce funds in building a second rate fighter that you will soon be getting rid of anyway.

We essentially agree. As said I kind of like the idea of a good all purpose end game fighter but my thinking indeed would be as you suggested a role specific fighter at the stage where the Marauder comes around. I was just thinking to extend the research to another stage where you then get the last tier fighter together with the Fury, in essence extending the time frame in which you need something better than the Condor and there won't be a better equivalent right around the corner.

Xenonauts cut it out and the OG certainly didn't do it perfectly but one good reason to not go all perfect last tier craft would be if you really need salvaged resources to build and maintain them, a bit like the original concept of the Fury needing a supply of quantum singularity nodes to keep getting those "I win" torpedoes.

[Gauddlike]

The general theme of Xenonauts seems to be 'Upgrade' instead of 'Roles'. This is more evident in GC weapons and armor as well. When you get the next tier, it is just a level-up and the old ones can go to trash. Aircraft too, are only so varied because engine allows so much variation. We complained corsair having the same loadout as the condor so it was pointless to build it, so that's the reason it got its two cannons. It can only possibly have either 2 cannons, 4 missiles, or 1 cannon 2 missile. All interceptors have the same upkeep as well, so there is no reason to keep that condor with 30 kills under its belt for keepsake after you get corsair.

To an extent, however roles are defined within each tier.

The weapons have their roles then when you upgrade the next tier follow those roles.

A shotgun type weapon is always designed for close up damage with good reactions, a precision rifle is always good at range with high accuracy but weaker up close and so on.

In the same way the two aircraft tiers could have roles within them, Condor as dogfighter, Foxtrot as ranged damage dealer then upgraded to Corsair as dogfighter and Marauder as ranged damage.

You could even add the Saracen back in as a tier 3 dogfighter and use the Fury as a tier 3 ranged craft at the expense of the super torpedo (or keep that as an alternative loadout, it's not like you can use them in every single fight) but that complicates things beyond what the basic air combat stats are probably capable of handling easily.

You could use UFO balance to provide the reasons for upgrading, maybe by adding some better missile defences.

If a later UFO needed more missiles to take down down then you could easily have the Foxtrot with it's two heavy missile hardpoints replaced by the Marauder with three or four at the expense of its cannon.

It wouldn't be a forced upgrade as such but it would make life easier.

If later escorts could evade more often and had point defence lasers then having a Corsair with two cannon could be a useful upgrade over a more missile reliant Condor.

Those escorts could also cause major problems for heavy missile squadrons so a fast dogfighter or two would be useful to bring along to clear the path for the heavy hitter.

Edited May 1, 2014 by Gauddlike

[StK]

To an extent, ...

snip

This.

I agree with the whole post. 100%

Edited May 1, 2014 by StK

[Sapare]

I just want to add in that I agree the Corsair needs some more utility. In my last few games I build some of them simply do to their speed.(have 1 with two foxtrots, the 1 can take down the escorts and 2 foxtrots pretty much any level of ship) But even then I always questioned if the investment was worth it, most of all when you run out of hangers and have to start scraping other planes for it.

I also very much liked Gauddlike's idea of missile point defense, Apocalypse had aliens use anti missile systems later in the game and it did a good job at forcing you to adapt and change your load outs.(admittedly, do to bad balance there was 1 weapon that trumps all anyway, but that is besides the point) Overall, adding alien UFO's that are capable of avoiding about 50% of the missles in some fashion or another and allowing us more freedom in the loadout of our planes.

Maybe even a missle that shoots two projectiles for each(so, 2 per hadrpoint) but has less overall damage potential then its equivalent 'normal' missile. It would do more damage then a normal turret gun, but less then a turret gun if the alien show down 1 of the two missiles it shot.

That would allow us to arm multiple ships of the same type for different kinds of UFO's, rather then just having everyone have the same default arment.

[legit1337]

Marauder needs to come later in the tech tree IMO. Like after MAG weapons. If it is going to be a "strong against everything" air superiority fighter, it needs to be one of the last things unlocked. Equivilant to the avenger of the OG.

Part of the reason nobody builds corsairs is that it is actually VIABLE to wait for Marauders. If you absolutely HAD to build corsairs to even make it to marauders without losing the game this whole discussion wouldn't be happening. I don't think the solution is to buff corsairs any more then they already had been. The problem is that there is not a NEED for them currently when condors can tide you over to marauders.