Grenade Rolling

[thixotrop]

@thixotrop That would mean the player is able to throw grenades any time they want and at any location apart from when they are standing by a door frame when the soldier they have selected suddenly refuses to perform the action.

There is a major disconnect there between what is normally possible and a sudden limitation for no good reason.

I can throw a grenade at a tree just in case there might possibly be an alien behind it, no matter how unlikely, but I cannot throw a grenade into a room that has a high likelihood of alien presence because the soldier doesn't think it is a good use of grenades?

What about when you see an alien walk into the room at the end of their turn but cannot quite see it at the start of yours?

Why would it be a waste of ammunition then as you know it is there somewhere, just out of sight?

What about if you want to use a frag grenade to destroy cover inside but cannot because of this limitation?

Taking a step away from the door after performing the sneaky look would then allow you to throw a grenade into the room using the normal mechanics?

This is also quite safe as you now know there is no enemy to reaction fire on you but you can work around the odd behaviour of the soldier preventing you throwing the grenade where you want it.

I understand what you mean, but then I did not say this method should be included just as I have told.

Certainly there has to be adjustments to other events like those you have mentioned.

And yes, I throw grenades to places I can't see clearly just because I have seen some alien going in that direction. Also places where I know a wraith will teleport to, because it did back and forth three rounds ago.

About the waste of ammnition: This was mentioned to have something against the argument of "just use lots of grenades and throw them anywhere, why bother". I did not intend to prohibit throwing in that case, I think I overdid it there, sorry.

I don't have a problem with the "sneaky look, step back and throw" tactic. But at it is right now you can't do the sneaky look around a corner. The soldier has to step out of cover and...typically get shot, even before he can turn around with its vision to see the room. I have lost a good bunch of soldiers due to that.

Do you think it would be a good idea for aliens to have the same ability? ie if your in a room should they be able to throw grenades into it without being seen and blowing your team to hell. If you think not then you shouldnt have this ability either.

Why not? So, they can throw something in. If you know that can happen, why not throw something out first?

Right now I have experienced that an alien opens a door, sees my soldiers, fires some shots and retreats. Door is still open and no alien can be seen by my soldiers and suddenly an alien grenade comes hopping by saying hello.

So in some way this tactic is already performed by the aliens.

OK, now you can say this is because the aliens can see you before you can see them, but does that change the subject. I don't think so and don't have a problem with the aliens doing that.

Edited February 13, 2014 by thixotrop

[Gauddlike]

You cannot perform the sneaky look you talk about because it is inherently imbalances the game.

If you can gain information on the location of the enemy from complete safety then you have gained a major advantage with no risk.

With squad sight you can engage those enemies from outside of their own engagement range, again in complete safety.

Breaching a guarded door to the alien ship shouldn't be a case of sneaking up to the door, spotting all the enemies inside then killing them from safety before moving on to the next door.

There are no tactical options to be made there beyond which weapon you are going to use to kill them with.

If you allow the soldier to perform attacks from safety on top of gathering intel then you are compounding the basic flaw of the suggestion.

In the real world gathering intel or attacking from safety would likely be the ideal situation for a military unit.

That is why they have drones and hundreds of other methods of gathering this kind of intel with minimal risk.

The real world is not a turn based game and does not share the same set of rules or even the same basic objectives however.

What works in the real world does not always work in the game world, and even some things that would work do not fit with the objectives of the game.

Allowing the player to attack and kill the enemy without risk is one of those things.

It sounds great on paper until you sit and think about actually playing the game with the system.

The easiest way to simulate it would be to remove any chance of reaction fire from the aliens and then see how interesting it is to breach the UFO.

That is effectively what the proposed mechanic of attacking from around a corner does.

[Darth Draken]

Original xcom game had a motion detector.

[Gauddlike]

The motion detector was imprecise for a reason.

It could tell you roughly where an enemy was if it had moved recently.

It did not allow you to pinpoint the enemy precisely or launch an attack on it using the blip on the screen.

The original x-com also had blaster bombs and chain mind control, the ultimate weapons in removing risk from attacking the enemy.

You rarely hear anyone praising how much tactical depth they add to the game.

Most people just used them to bypass actually fighting the enemy.

If you see an enemy mind control him and make him drop his weapons so you can kill him without risk.

If there is likely to be an enemy in the next room just blaster bomb it so you don't need to risk getting shot.

Fortunately those were left out of Xenonauts, I have no wish to see them replaced with a different mechanic that allows similar opportunities to bypass the point of the game.

I think we are going round in circles though, going to leave you to the discussion.

[thixotrop]

I think we are going round in circles though, going to leave you to the discussion.

Hehe, no you don't need to leave the discussion. We can end it here, as it seems it will be a lot of work to implement in the game.

On the one hand due to all the possible events the soldier may neglect to throw, and on the other hand all the graphical work, the time unit calculation, programming and things I don't know are also necessary.

I see what you mean with the imbalances and I understand that.

Though I guess as long as the aliens can use the same tactic no advantage would be there.

Unless you count in the human factor of adapting the own playing style (grenading everything without sense, avoiding enemies as soon as they are spotted, sniping aliens out of shadows and faroff corners and so on, smoke-bombing the whole way to the ufo and or to buildings). Even if these could be performed by the AI too, I guess the game would become unplayable pretty soon, or at least very frustrating.

My original intention with "rolling grenades" and then "look around the corner" was to have more "freedom" in tactics.

Now, if you want to look into a room with/without aliens inside and with/without knowing that there are some, your soldier is at a high risk to die by reaction fire for this.

So the "sneaky look" (maybe short, maybe not the full room, maybe aliens are not visible anymore once this sneaky look is finished) at least would really help, even if no grenades could be thrown or weapoms shot in that direction.

And I think that this will definitely add something to tactics, because you know that aliens are there but can't reach them from outside the room, so you have to think something up to get them without soldiers to die by bad luck (reaction fire).

But I don't want to press the issue further as I have typed too much again already...I wanted to end it, wasn't I.

[Gauddlike]

Yeah I wasn't storming off because of the discussion I just think I have covered my points and figured it was less annoying if I stop repeating myself and let others join in if they have anything to say

[Caaygun]

Well instead of more functionality for grenades, how about first implementing containment for smoke and explosion by walls: stun gas can knock people out from beyond a wall or door now. Also, grenades exploding adjacent to a wall could reflect some explosion from the wall, like when a grenade explodes inside a small room or a narrow corridor, it does more damage inside, though i guess this perhaps requires a more complicated method of 'expanding' the explosion, rather than mapping it on tiles.