Realism Issues Center: Lets make this game make more sense

[Ishantil]

I know, I know. It's the only thing I could come up with to make it less...painful. Mach five. FIVE.

Please, by all means, suggest something better!

What did you think of the Sidewinder one? I thought that one was much better.

[EchoFourDelta]

Increased mass, different engines and propellants; all these things figure into a missile's flight speed.

[Ishantil]

I can barely justify the changes to the missile. It might be better to redo the entire entry and have them build the missile from the ground up?

[GizmoGomez]

I'd make the avalanche it's own thing. Say that the warhead was taken from the Phoenix, but that the actual rocket bit was designed specifically for UFO-hunting.

Good job, some grammar issues and stuff, but those can be cleaned up later. Quite nice.

[Ishantil]

I will rewrite the Avalanche entry to reflect it being a derivation of the original Phoenix missile, rather than modification. I will note there being a much larger seeker package.

Shall I include existing problems with something to denote it's lack of maneuverability? It's practically a dumbfire torpedo, which is quite...uh...well, lame, really.

I thought the Sidewinder one came out rather well, thoughts?

[GizmoGomez]

It came out well, yeah.

I've tried to base my things more directly off of the original entry so we can keep the same rhythm and style as Chris's work. I'll see if I can merge your ideas with what Chris has written to come up with a more "in-style" version.

All in all, though, it was good.

[Ishantil]

Okay, I've reworked the Avalanche a bit. I think this version is a definite improvement.

After more detailed research into alien spacecraft observed in orbit, our team realized we would soon need much larger weapons system. Since the Sidewinder doesn't carry a large enough warhead to inflict enough damage on larger alien craft, we started the Avalanche project along side the Foxtrot program.

The AIM-54A Phoenix missile was chosen as the basis for our new "air-to-air torpedo" designed to be carried by the new MiG-32 Foxtrot interceptor. While we retained the rocket body, we needed a lot of extra space to enclose the long range ARDA seeker. This meant that the rocket engine had to be completely redesigned to fit in a smaller space. The new engines aren't capable of delivering the nearly specific impulse of original, but they are considerably more reliable.

While slower and not as maneuverable as the Sidewinder, the Avalanche should prove much more effective against larger alien spacecraft. Like the new Sidewinder, it features a redesigned 58kg shaped-charge warhead which can be devastating when it does find its mark.

I'll see what you come up with.

[GizmoGomez]

I'd rewrite the last sentence, it looks as if the Sidewinder also has a 58kg shaped charge warhead. Also, there's no hyphen in shaped charge.

[GizmoGomez]

Honestly, much of the information in your version of the Sidewinder entry isn't needed. I mean, why would the head scientist be telling the commander when the AIM-9L was first introduced? Do either of them care?

Just a thought.

I'm still working on my own version, hang on.

[Ishantil]

He's not telling the commander, he's telling the player, important difference.

Hahaha, the hyphen in shaped-charge, er...shaped charge, is from Chris' writing.

[GizmoGomez]

You know what? Remembering the wording of the plasma missile entry, it talks about how we've focused on raw explosive power to breach the hulls instead of piercing them (like a HEAT round). So, we shouldn't change the warheads of the sidewinder and the avalanche to be armor piercing, otherwise we'd have to rewrite the plasma and probably the alenium warhead entries too.

Also, thinking about the point of this thread some more, we aren't rewriting the entries to be more interesting, or giving them more background. We're simply clearing up unrealistic things, and replacing them with realistic things. My modified version of the sidewinder text would be sufficient, though I do like mentioning the ARDA system you did in your version. I just don't want to modify things too much, only what's necessary for realism's sake.

Here's a rewrite of my version of the sidewinder entry, incorporating some cues from yours:

The AIM-9 Sidewinder is a medium-range air-to-air missile carrying a substantial 9.4kg explosive warhead. Difficult to evade and capable of inflicting damage through even heavy armour, it can be fitted to any missile hardpoint due to its low weight. While conventionally operating as a heat-seeking missile, analysis of the data from the Iceland Incident has led Xenonaut technicians to replace the infrared sensors with a radiation seeker. We've adapted the Adaptive Radiation Detection Array (ARDA) used with our aircraft to serve in this role. This allows the Sidewinder to target and track the distinctive radiation patterns emitted by the extraterrestrial craft and successfully achieve a target lock. However, largely due to the small array capable of being fit inside the missile, the weakness of the emission signatures means that a lock can only be achieved at ranges of less than eight kilometres.

Edited September 2, 2013 by GizmoGomez

[GizmoGomez]

Also, the player is the Commander. I was under the impression that the Xenopedia entries were all written by the head scientist for the Commander of the Xenonauts to read. Maybe I'm wrong. <shrug>

[Ishantil]

No, that's important, and you are correct. But keep in mind that the Commander and the player are the same person. The Commander, depending on his or her background (even in the armed forces) may not know much about aircraft technologies. I'm not arguing necessarily for the minutiae to be included, but merely pointing out that assuming "the commander doesn't care/doesn't know" isn't as cut and dry as you are making it sound, in my opinion. That's all.

I think including some of the facts about the original weapons systems adds a bit of flavor to the entries, but feel free to edit them out.

[Ishantil]

The original entry says the Avalanche is a shaped charge, btw. And the original sidewinder entry mentions "even through heavy armor" A blast fragmentation warhead will shred an airplane, but it would have a lot more trouble against heavy armor like a tank.

"However, largely due to the small array capable of being fit inside the missile, the weakness of the emission signatures means that a lock can only be achieved at ranges of less than eight kilometres. "

This sentence is a little weird. Maybe this?

"In order to make the ARDA system small enough to replace the original seeker, the sensor is only capable of achieving a lock at ranges of less than eight kilometres. "

And you have a point about the original intent of the project, so I we should only change things when necessary.

Maybe I'll start a branch to expand the Xenopedia and make it a mod.

Edited September 2, 2013 by Ishantil

[GizmoGomez]

Here's the current entry:

The Avalanche is a long-range air-to-air missile fitted with a powerful 58kg shaped-charge explosive warhead derived from the AIM-54 Phoenix missile. The Avalanche is relatively slow moving and has a poor turn rate (making it easy to evade), but can be devastating when it does find its mark.

Here's the proposed entry, with the changes in bold:

The Avalanche is a long-range air-to-air missile developed in tandem and to be used with the MiG-32 Foxtrot. Based on the AIM-54 Phoenix missile, it is fitted with a powerful 58kg High Explosive Anti-Tank (or in this case, anti-UFO) warhead designed to defeat heavy armour. The Avalanche is relatively slow moving and has a poor turn rate, thus making it easy to evade for more manoeuverable extraterrestrial craft. However, it can prove devastating when it does find its mark.

The guidance system is, like that of Sidewinder, a downscaled version of the ARDA. The array used in the Avalanche is significantly larger than that of the Sidewinder, allowing the extraterrestrial-specific radiation emissions to be detected at a greater distance and increasing the range of the Avalanche to 15km.

Reasons for changes:

-"developed in tandem and to be used with the Foxtrot"

I'd make the Foxtrot unlock the Avalanche missile description as well, since the avalanche can't be used until you have the Foxtrot.

-"HEAT stuff"

The fusion warhead entry mentions the Avalanche using a HEAT warhead. I figured the main avalanche entry should too.

-"Making it easy to evade for more manoeuverable UFOs"

Giving the player a hint not to use them against the evasive UFOs.

-"Guidance system, ARDA"

Continuity, and explaining why a missile based on the AIM-54 has a short range. Also, the 15 clicks comes from the 15000 used in the game code as the range of the avalanche.

Edited September 2, 2013 by GizmoGomez

[GizmoGomez]

The original entry says the Avalanche is a shaped charge, btw. And the original sidewinder entry mentions "even through heavy armor" A blast fragmentation warhead will shred an airplane, but it would have a lot more trouble against heavy armor like a tank.

"However, largely due to the small array capable of being fit inside the missile, the weakness of the emission signatures means that a lock can only be achieved at ranges of less than eight kilometres. "

This sentence is a little weird. Maybe this?

"In order to make the ARDA system small enough to replace the original seeker, the sensor is only capable of achieving a lock at ranges of less than eight kilometres. "

And you have a point about the original intent of the project, so I we should only change things when necessary.

Maybe I'll start a branch to expand the Xenopedia and make it a mod.

A mod would be awesome, I'd like to see the Xenopedia expended in that manner.

You are right about the shaped charge, when I looked up the plasma and fusion weapons I saw that the Avalanche actually has a HEAT warhead. Thus, I've altered the Avalanche to indicate this.

Good point with the Sidewinder sentence, I'll update the post.

EDIT:

Question, then: Do you think that my updated sidewinder entry is sufficient, then? (Once I've made the change you suggested.) I put your Sidewinder and Avalanche proposals on the OP. Since you're going to make an expanded Xenopedia mod with them (hopefully ) may I take them down then?

[Ishantil]

I think that for the scope of this project, the entry you wrote with a little bit of my input is better.

I like the expanded entries more, personally. I guess I should start making a list of my own entries.

[EchoFourDelta]

It's not a HEAT round. Splitting hairs, but it's an absolutely air-to-air weapon. If there's a shaped-charge component, it's simply referred to as such, or more plainly as "high explosive."

HEAT describes surface to surface or air to surface weapons systems designed explicitly for use against heavy armor; smaller munitions are referred to similarly as HEAP: High Explosive Armor Piercing (note the lack of "anti-tank").

[GizmoGomez]

Issue:

The Xenonauts and the rest of the world (Local Forces) all use radar. However, only the Xenonauts can actually detect and track the UFOs. The rest of the world only reports sightings, or attacks, or odd events.

Obviously the Xenonauts can do something that the rest of the world cannot.

Solution:

We (of the Realism Issue Center) have come up with the Adaptive Radiation Detection Array, or ARDA. The ARDA detects the radiation emissions that the UFOs emit.

This array is fitted to our planes to allow them to have the sensor ranges (circles) they do on the geoscape.

Smaller versions of this array are fitted in the Sidewinder and the Avalanche that allow them to lock on to the UFOs.

Why don't we simply have a massively powerful version of the ARDA in the Xenonaut base?

It makes everything make sense.

The rest of the world can't shoot down or otherwise deal with UFOs because they simply can't track them, or detect them. They use radar, which (according to the iceland incident) isn't very effective against UFOs. They don't have the ARDA that we have.

Plus, this would mean that the underground radar dish (which wouldn't work, by the way ) is actually an Adaptive Radiation Detection Array, which could work (I mean, some radiation can pass straight through solid matter. Gamma rays, for example).

Work for the devs:

It'd be child's play to rename the base structure and correct the applicable strings. I mean, there are only 11 uses of the word "radar" in the strings file (most of which wouldn't change because they refer either to variables or local force radar stations) and only one use of it in the xenopedia (quantum cryptology). Simply change the word "radar" to "sensor" in the quantum cryptography entry, and rename the base structure to "Detection Array" or "ARDA System."

Exact places that'd need to have changes:

In xenopedia.xml:

-In the Quantum Cryptography entry: Change "radar" to "sensor".

In strings.xml:

-Row 90, "Radar Range"

-Row 265, "Radar detection:"

-Row 1095, "Radar ranges"

-Row 1203, Change "Radar Array" to "Detection Array"

-Row 1549, "...radar screens..."

Edited September 3, 2013 by GizmoGomez

[GizmoGomez]

It's not a HEAT round. Splitting hairs, but it's an absolutely air-to-air weapon. If there's a shaped-charge component, it's simply referred to as such, or more plainly as "high explosive."

HEAT describes surface to surface or air to surface weapons systems designed explicitly for use against heavy armor; smaller munitions are referred to similarly as HEAP: High Explosive Armor Piercing (note the lack of "anti-tank").

In that case, we need to change the fusion warheads entry as well. It talks about the Avalanche using a HEAT warhead.

I don't have an issue with it, but if it actually is a big issue then I suppose we could change it.

[Ishantil]

I never realized that my off the cuff invention of the ARDA system would become so prominent.

I agree that if we're going keep with that theme, the RADAR array should be changed to ARDA System or something like that. Remember that not all radiation is necessarily ionizing radiation like gamma rays (passing through most low density matter). To be fair, though, the original text doesn't describe the type of radiation in any way. So we should probably just keep ourselves out of it.

Physics folks, now is your time to shine!

The term "shaped charge" simply refers to a type of explosive which has been focused in order to cut through something. The military terminology is generally "HEAT", which has itself become a more ubiquitous term. Since "HEAT" is a very sophisticated "shaped charge" using them interchangeably is probably not incorrect. You could also use the term "anti-armor" to describe the weapons.

The Hellfire missile is a great example of this technology being applied (although the modern day Hellfire has a much broader range of targets it can in engage).

[GizmoGomez]

Part of me wants to suggest making the ARDA it's own Xenopedia entry. However, it'd require artwork, which could cost Chris money. Kinda a pity; it'd be a great tool in explaining exactly why the Xenonauts are able to deal with UFOs that everyone else can't manage to deal with. With the current situation we don't really have an explanation as to why the Xenonauts can see the enemy and the local forces can't.

Edited September 2, 2013 by GizmoGomez

[Ishantil]

Yeah, hrmm. I wonder if any of our resident artists would mind drawing an ARDA system

[GizmoGomez]

Good idea!

I'd just make it a closeup of the base structure's main dish. We don't need to imagine what'd look good for the aircraft ARDA; we already have the base "radar station" (which should be renamed to "Radiation Detection Array", or "Adaptive Radiation Detection Array" if there's room in the string) to base the image on.

[Ishantil]

That would be awesome, I was thinking along similar lines, actually. "ARDA System" is what I would name it.

Oooh, and it also makes more sense for the dish to actually be in the base, rather than say...dunno, on top of something high, like...where you put radar.