my thoughts

[BigityBalzworth]

First of all, I want to say that this looks like a fantastic game. A well done, proper x-com-type game has been a long time coming and it looks like you guys are really on top of it. Hats off to the ones with the vision, and the ones in the trenches.

I have hunted down everything writen about this game online, read these forums, and watched a bunch of youtube videos. However, I have NOT actually played the game. Although it is tempting, I think I'll wait a while. At least until it's a little ways to BETA until I spoil the surprise.

Here are some things I thought:

-Can you reload early? The addition of the shotgun got me thinkin that, the ammo is probably actually a magazine. And since there isn't different types of ammo, I don't see a remove ammo button. but you wouldn't want to walk into a room with 1 or 2 shells in your slow to reload shotgun.

-The 2 handed weapon filling both slots thing has got to go. otherwise what are you gonna do if you wanna throw a grenade or a flare, put the rifle in your backpack? drop it? that's terrible. Or maybe you don't even plan on firing the weapon? maybe you just want to pick up a fallen soldier's testicle evaporator rifle and run/toss it over to someone else. To keep players from going Rambo, just make 2 handed weapons wildly inaccurate if something is in the other hand.

-still looking for interesting grenade ideas? how about a flashbang grenade that reduces enemy AP stored for reaction fire? pretty good idea, i know.

-MORE INVENTORY SLOTS!!!!! we need the tactical vest style shoulder slots back for grenades and flares and the like. I am the kind of player that takes a lot of time equiping my soldiers for the worst case scenario. with the belt only, if you give you're soldier a backup pistol, you are basically out of easily accessible space for extra ammo for 2 weapons, a couple grenades, smoke, flares, whatever else.

I guess that's about all. I really hope the research/ tech tree is given some serious attention. that was always a big thing for me back in the day. even some deadend research would be a pleasant dissapointment. or fully functional devices that you discover simply suck (Heavy laser, anyone?). Also, if you're going with the file folder look, how about a coffee stain or two?

Keep up the good work. I can't wait for this game to be completed!

[Gorlom]

First of all, I want to say that this looks like a fantastic game. A well done, proper x-com-type game has been a long time coming and it looks like you guys are really on top of it. Hats off to the ones with the vision, and the ones in the trenches.

I have hunted down everything writen about this game online, read these forums, and watched a bunch of youtube videos. However, I have NOT actually played the game. Although it is tempting, I think I'll wait a while. At least until it's a little ways to BETA until I spoil the surprise.

Here are some things I thought:

-Can you reload early? The addition of the shotgun got me thinkin that, the ammo is probably actually a magazine. And since there isn't different types of ammo, I don't see a remove ammo button. but you wouldn't want to walk into a room with 1 or 2 shells in your slow to reload shotgun.

Why would you need to remove ammo? From a game mechanic perspective just put more ammo in the gun.

-The 2 handed weapon filling both slots thing has got to go. otherwise what are you gonna do if you wanna throw a grenade or a flare, put the rifle in your backpack? drop it? that's terrible. Or maybe you don't even plan on firing the weapon? maybe you just want to pick up a fallen soldier's testicle evaporator rifle and run/toss it over to someone else. To keep players from going Rambo, just make 2 handed weapons wildly inaccurate if something is in the other hand.

Think theres a discussion on this elsewhere on the forum. oddly enough makeing the 2handed weapon innaccurate if something else is held in the other hand hasnt come up afaik. personally i think thats just a lazy solution. the other options mentioned were better.

-still looking for interesting grenade ideas? how about a flashbang grenade that reduces enemy AP stored for reaction fire? pretty good idea, i know.

-MORE INVENTORY SLOTS!!!!! we need the tactical vest style shoulder slots back for grenades and flares and the like. I am the kind of player that takes a lot of time equiping my soldiers for the worst case scenario. with the belt only, if you give you're soldier a backup pistol, you are basically out of easily accessible space for extra ammo for 2 weapons, a couple grenades, smoke, flares, whatever else.!

With all those extra inventory slots filled your soldier is going to be carrying too much weight and hes not going to have any Turn units.

I guess that's about all. I really hope the research/ tech tree is given some serious attention. that was always a big thing for me back in the day. even some deadend research would be a pleasant dissapointment. or fully functional devices that you discover simply suck (Heavy laser, anyone?). Also, if you're going with the file folder look, how about a coffee stain or two?

Keep up the good work. I can't wait for this game to be completed!

Neither can the rest of us. preorder to give Chris more money to work with for finishing the game =)

[iamkyon]

-Can you reload early? The addition of the shotgun got me thinkin that, the ammo is probably actually a magazine. And since there isn't different types of ammo, I don't see a remove ammo button. but you wouldn't want to walk into a room with 1 or 2 shells in your slow to reload shotgun.

This functions as related by Gorlom. A partially used clip gets obliterated in the process.

-The 2 handed weapon filling both slots thing has got to go. otherwise what are you gonna do if you wanna throw a grenade or a flare, put the rifle in your backpack? drop it? that's terrible. Or maybe you don't even plan on firing the weapon? maybe you just want to pick up a fallen soldier's testicle evaporator rifle and run/toss it over to someone else. To keep players from going Rambo, just make 2 handed weapons wildly inaccurate if something is in the other hand.

I believe the thread Gorlom is referring to is Combat GUI Update. You should check it out.

-still looking for interesting grenade ideas? how about a flashbang grenade that reduces enemy AP stored for reaction fire? pretty good idea, i know.

Suppressive fire and related game mechanics were discussed at length on the old forums. This calls for a new thread!

-MORE INVENTORY SLOTS!!!!! we need the tactical vest style shoulder slots back for grenades and flares and the like. I am the kind of player that takes a lot of time equiping my soldiers for the worst case scenario. with the belt only, if you give you're soldier a backup pistol, you are basically out of easily accessible space for extra ammo for 2 weapons, a couple grenades, smoke, flares, whatever else.

The game penalises heavily for overburdening your soldiers, and it's easy enough to sap them of their action points as is. Unlike inventory slots, item weights are moddable, though.

Edited January 16, 2012 by iamkyon

[BigityBalzworth]

-well you would need to remove ammo if say, you wanted to change out the type of rocket in your launcher without firing it

-i believe the original x-com handled 2-handed weapons this way.

-as far as inventory slots, maybe my soldier is really strong, maybe flares and other items don't weigh much, or maybe i should have the ability to overload my guys as much as I want!

[anotherdevil]

also I think different armours will have different inventory layouts

[iamkyon]

also I think different armours will have different inventory layouts

That's a new one on me!

[anotherdevil]

might have been old forum, or I might just be making it up... Perhaps Sathra will elaborate =p =]

[Sathra]

I have no idea what you're talking about AD. I brought it up on the old forums, but it got shot down.

As for the rest, Kyon and Gorlom are reasonably correct. But for clarification:

- You should be able to swap clips and ammo out. AFAIK, the current behaviour is a bug.

- Nothing to add here, Gorlom and Kyon pretty much answered this for me.

- Kyon has got this pretty correct. Haven't heard much from Chris on this front recently though.

- Probably not. Xenonauts seems to be tending towards having players make informed decisions about equipment, rather than just loading a bunch of stuff on. I think flares are also automatically equipped for night combat, but otherwise aren't present. On top of that, stuff is really heavy, and armour counts towards weight limits.

- The tech tree is much larger, and Chris is looking at making sure there aren't any 'useless' techs (Like alien entertainment or the autopsies). Ideally, everything would have some benefit. There are also multiple paths to any tech.

[anotherdevil]

I have no idea what you're talking about AD. I brought it up on the old forums, but it got shot down.

oh really? Sorry about that, I guess I have trouble remembering what was liked and what wasn't, I always quite liked the idea, and it made sense to me too. Oh well

[BigityBalzworth]

- Probably not. Xenonauts seems to be tending towards having players make informed decisions about equipment, rather than just loading a bunch of stuff on. I think flares are also automatically equipped for night combat, but otherwise aren't present.

Sounds like limiting the player's freedom to me, and where are those flares gonna go? In the backpack?? seriously?? I just don't see the point of directly incorporating X-Com's inventory system, then perverting it's funtionality with things like this and the sometimes-you-only-have-one-hand system.

[anotherdevil]

Sounds like limiting the player's freedom to me, and where are those flares gonna go? In the backpack?? seriously?? I just don't see the point of directly incorporating X-Com's inventory system, then perverting it's funtionality with things like this and the sometimes-you-only-have-one-hand system.

limiting the players freedom would be to not allow you to take certain things. You can take whatever it is you have at base, so long as you have room in your backpack. we've gone a long way from games like quake where you could carry every gun under the sun at the same time, apparently someone thought it was unrealistic for one man to carry SMGs, rifles, pistols, rocket launchers, grenade launchers, BFGs, laser rifles, plasma rifles, flame throwers, grenades... =p

And I imagine that the flares do go in the backpack, or in the belt. And you can probably move them out of the backpack if you so desire. As for "perverting" the inventory functionality, care to explain what you mean?

[Lairdom]

Sounds like limiting the player's freedom to me, and where are those flares gonna go? In the backpack?? seriously?? I just don't see the point of directly incorporating X-Com's inventory system, then perverting it's funtionality with things like this and the sometimes-you-only-have-one-hand system.

I prefer to how it is currently, opening the backpack and swapping your gun to a flare is not a big task nor does it cost too much AP. Of course there are always risks that your soldier may end up defenseless at the end of the turn, but then again it is a tactical decision, much like in real life where a soldier shifts his focus to do something else and might get caught off guard. It works perfectly fine in the game's flow.

Question though: What difference does it make if you keep your sidearm on your belt or on your backpack? Does it cost less AP to swap something from your belt than from your backpack?

[anotherdevil]

I think it does, but I'm not sure sorry

[BigityBalzworth]

in X-com i think it was at least double for belt compared to backpack. Seems like it was more, though. but there were shoulder and leg spots, too. shoulder was sort of a quick slot for grenades/flares and stuff to throw. I do feel that was a superior design, but I will learn to live with whatever I will have too, I guess.

[BigityBalzworth]

it absoutely takes a lot more time to stop and remove your backpack to root through it, then it does to grab ready to go items on a belt or other easily available place

[anotherdevil]

I agree it does, I think that the belt still functions (or is planned to) as a quick grab spot, but the soldiers don't seem to be wearing any kind of combat harness that might allow them to have leg and arm spots

[BigityBalzworth]

as for perverting the system, I was really referring to the 2-handed weapon rule. I realize that most weapons will require both hands to acheive any effectiveness. however, a person has TWO hands. a person can hold things with BOTH hands. a person can throw things while holding something in ONE hand that requires BOTH hands to use properly. This is a combat zone. very unpredictable and unforgiving. Even more so than it used to be with the addition of "iron man mode" (which i absolutely LOVE!!!). I can recall many drastic moments in x-com where one had to think outside the box, or make some serious tactical decisions to acheive success. one may have to use a soldier as a runner to grab equipment from fallen soldiers or other stash spots and run it or throw it to other members of the squad. it takes two hands to do this effectively. use you imagination, there are plenty of times when two hands will be neccessary in a war zone when holding a rifle or whatever else. the constant shuffling of items in and out of backpacks is rediculous, and will kill your times units unnessesarily. And the whole drop the weapon to throw a grenade is absolutely awful. just because something "works" doesnt't mean it is any good. players should feel like a part of the scene when playing. they should be able to use items in realistic way. if I'm carrying a rifle and i want to pickup the extra clip my dead buddy was carrying and toss over the the rookie who is almost out of ammo, I have to put my weapon in my backpack? I understand the thinking behind this idea, but it is NOT ideal, and it really doesn't make any sense.

[BigityBalzworth]

and in reality, you CAN fire a rifle with one hand. just dont plan on hitting a target more than two feet away

[BigityBalzworth]

either destroy a two handed weapons accuracy when holding another item. Or if your really a stickler for this idea, make it so you can't fire it at all. But don't just cut off my other hand.

[Gorlom]

I understand the thinking behind this idea, but it is NOT ideal, and it really doesn't make any sense.

Maybe it makes sense from a gamemechanic balanceing point of view? It will most likely not look like the current setup in the finished game but how it was in X-com:EU or how it is in the real world might not allways apply since this is a new game after all. It might need some tweaking to the mechanics that you might not agree on.

[anotherdevil]

Have you joined in on the ground combat GUI thread. Because I totally agree with your whole 'can hold a gun with 1 hand' thing

[Gauddlike]

That is the beauty of using a grenade from the quick slots on the new GUI.

You click on it and the soldier picks it from wherever it is stored and throws it.

You can ignore whatever weapon is in his hands and just say he held the rifle in one hand long enough to throw, slung it from a strap, leaned it against the wall etc without having to worry.

The only time it would be an issue is if you wanted to run around with a grenade permanently in hand.

If that was the case it would make sense to only use a one handed weapon in the other hand.

[anotherdevil]

I agree, but the current idea is that the rifle goes into backpack (or ground), grenade goes into hand, throw grenade, then... I dislike this immensely

[Gauddlike]

Yeah but it is only a vague idea atm, doubt it will remain that way.

[BigityBalzworth]

AD, Im with you on the immense dislike. I'm honestly not sure how I feel about the "grenade button", either. sure, it sounds like a reasonable idea, but i think it would complicate things, and waste our beloved developers' time. and im not really sure how it would work, anyway. first of all a large part of these games is customizing weapons loadouts, and managing inventory. what if you have 5 different kinds of grenades on you? smoke, regular, alien, stun, incendiary, etc., or any imaginable combination of them? And many of us would probably like to have a grenade ready to go as we come around a corner instead of exposing yourself to enemy fire and then performing 5 conecutive actions before trying to get back to cover.

Edited January 20, 2012 by BigityBalzworth