Danny Pockets Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 So this isn't a complaint about squad sight being OP for aliens this time. Well, actually it probably is. We'll see. First thing: I'm in the desert. There's a Harriden that sees my soldier. I walk that soldier around the other side of one of the large rock formations (the big mesa looking things). So he is completely out of line of sight that Harriden. I end my turn, and during the alien turn, a barrage of fire comes out of the fog and toasts my soldier. But he definitely was outta sight of that first Harriden. So I'm not sure what happened there. I didn't think that squad sight worked that way: Do I remain visible to any alien because some alien saw me in the previous turn? If that's the case, then someone ought to cut that business out right now. What I don't know is who the alien was that shot me out of the fog (because I finished the map by holding the alien ship, like a boss). If it was another Harriden, I don't know but I think they have much farther range so maybe that's why it could see me but all I could see was fog? Second thing, and this felt much more like a bug to me: So I've got a soldier crouched behind a flower pot (you know the ones). This is just outside the chopper (on a terror mission map). He's not looking directly ahead, he's angled to the left. I send another soldier round from the back of the chopper to take cover beside him, but as she comes round the chopper she stops, because it turns out a Reaper is next to that first soldier, only one tile away. Scared the hell out of me! Where did that Reaper come from, and how did it sneak up on my soldier like that? This is right at the bottom corner of the map, so it didn't sneak up from behind, it had to cross the road to approach my soldier. And my soldier wasn't facing hard left, he was only angled left a little, so unless it turns out these guys have shocking peripheral vision, I don't understand how that damn beast crept up on me like that, and why it was only revealed when my lady soldier came around the chopper. By the way, and I don't know if I got this impression because all my rocket launcher soldiers happen to be ladies, but the stun rockets are a little bit saucy, don't you think? They're a bit suggestive. I mean, I know this isn't a game for children, but still... Incidentally, is it possible to to take screen shots the regular way or not? I googled and found an old forum post where Chris said it wasn't possible and then Gauddlike called him a filthy liar (his words) so now I don't know what to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderGr Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 First thing: I'm in the desert. There's a Harriden that sees my soldier. I walk that soldier around the other side of one of the large rock formations (the big mesa looking things). So he is completely out of line of sight that Harriden. I end my turn, and during the alien turn, a barrage of fire comes out of the fog and toasts my soldier. But he definitely was outta sight of that first Harriden. So I'm not sure what happened there. I didn't think that squad sight worked that way: Do I remain visible to any alien because some alien saw me in the previous turn? If that's the case, then someone ought to cut that business out right now. What I don't know is who the alien was that shot me out of the fog (because I finished the map by holding the alien ship, like a boss). If it was another Harriden, I don't know but I think they have much farther range so maybe that's why it could see me but all I could see was fog? Another alien spotting you at your new location sounds like the best explanation. Just because you got out of the line of sight of the first alien, does not mean the direction you headed is not known, you know. However, I do not know if the AI uses that information, yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RawCode Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 ai share sight, if any allien spot location any allien can shot it, it can cause some alliens shoting from other side of map killing your units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dranak Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 There are also some bugs which cause aliens to ignore line of sight, and see/shoot at you through objects on the map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Lol I don't remember using that phrase but you certainly can take screenshots in game It does appear to depend on the system running the game though to how easy it is and which methods work. I need to use ctrl+alt+print screen then paste the saved image into an image editor (paint will do). If you don't run multiple monitors either ctrl+print screen or alt+print screen should work as long as you paste into an empty image file afterwards. If you Xenonauts through steam then the steam default hotkey works (f12 I think) and saves the image automatically wherever steam puts these things. I don't think the simple option of hitting print screen and the image automatically saving to your drive works though which is probably what Chris was referring to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RawCode Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 steamoverlay not functional for xenonauts (can't state that it dont work completely, but it defenly not working for me), srintscreen work fine both window and fullscreen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcomnaut Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Althrough Squad Sight sounds realistic, it removes fun from the game. Aliens shooting from other side of map, through roof to lower level, from other side of building or from other room in their base. 90% of time they miss badly and just give away their location which makes exploring not fun at all. Is this bug or intended, IMHO, it should be removed for sake of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Althrough Squad Sight sounds realistic, it removes fun from the game. Aliens shooting from other side of map, through roof to lower level, from other side of building or from other room in their base. 90% of time they miss badly and just give away their location which makes exploring not fun at all. Is this bug or intended, IMHO, it should be removed for sake of fun.That is not easy at all. There are a ton of logical and programming problems involved in removing squad sight and it can significantly alter how a game is played. Blocking who can fire at a target based on whether or not THEY can see it presents all kinds of issues. Trust me, I've been down this road before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mytheos Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Althrough Squad Sight sounds realistic, it removes fun from the game. Aliens shooting from other side of map, through roof to lower level, from other side of building or from other room in their base. 90% of time they miss badly and just give away their location which makes exploring not fun at all. Is this bug or intended, IMHO, it should be removed for sake of fun. Are you SURE they are shooting at you by using squad sight? They COULD be shooting at civilian within their sight range and simply missing, causing their projectiles to travel until something stops them...like unfortunately your soldiers. I lost a soldier because of that and yeah it does suck, but not much to do about it unless you make the projectiles disappear after so long, but I would disapprove of that. Getting randomly shot by someone not trying to shoot you is just a reality of war. I mean granted if it happens commonly then that needs to be looked at for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Having played when the aliens could fire a ton and see really far I can certainly see where Mytheos is going. I lost a lot of soldiers to massive firepower where just being on the battlefield was dangerous even if no one was aiming at you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcomnaut Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Are you SURE they are shooting at you by using squad sight?They COULD be shooting at civilian within their sight range and simply missing, causing their projectiles to travel until something stops them...like unfortunately your soldiers. I lost a soldier because of that and yeah it does suck, but not much to do about it unless you make the projectiles disappear after so long, but I would disapprove of that. Getting randomly shot by someone not trying to shoot you is just a reality of war. I mean granted if it happens commonly then that needs to be looked at for sure. Yep, they shooting exactly at me. Best examples are alien base battle or alien ship assault. When I'm hit instead of civilian, its working as intended and im not talking about those situations. @StellarRat Maybe some kind of LOS trigger could be implemented, so no LOS = no shooting, or % to hit < x = no shooting, ect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mytheos Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 I dont think Aliens can shoot at you outside their weapon ranges... At least I could have sworn I heard a Dev say that, but I could be wrong. Well I cant find it but I found this... Chris - "The current formula already causes accuracy dropping off steeply beyond effective weapon range, so I don't see that it particularly needs fixing in this instance. Perhaps the weapon ranges need to change tho. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mytheos Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 @xcomnaut So I'm going to guess you are either crazy unlucky, or you are crazy unlucky....for one reason or the other..maybe both? lol Not saying there isnt a bug going on there tho, but I havent noticed it personally...but I use the hell out of smoke grenades so dont get shot at much, as I engage Aliens on my terms, not theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 @xcomnautSo I'm going to guess you are either crazy unlucky, or you are crazy unlucky....for one reason or the other..maybe both? lol Not saying there isnt a bug going on there tho, but I havent noticed it personally...but I use the hell out of smoke grenades so do get shot at much, as I engage Aliens on my terms, not theirs. Chris and Aaron have both stated the aliens do use squad sight against you just like you can use it against them, so he's not crazy. Also, I think there is 5% chance for ANY shot to hit or to miss for that matter.@xcomnaut - As far as No see no shoot type of code, what prevents you from just targeting the tile the alien is in with area fire or a rocket blast?? See what I mean? It's not a simple problem to deal with. This is very difficult problem that stems from the very fact that you, the player, controls every soldier on the battlefield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcomnaut Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Maybe I'm super unlucky I'm not hurt by this, as I said, aliens hardly hit. It just give away their location, making exploration and combat not so fun. I mean exactly that, remove Squad Sight for aliens but leave it for player. Why make artificial realism ("increase game dificulty")? Game does not need to be fair for aliens, its need to be fun for player Situation like this is almost same as playing without fog of war. Anyway its no good for aliens, they could be more successful by sitting quiet and waiting for reaction fire instead of saying "hey guys, we are here!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mytheos Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Chris and Aaron have both stated the aliens do use squad sight against you just like you can use it against them, so he's not crazy. Also, I think there is 5% chance for ANY shot to hit or to miss for that matter.@xcomnaut - As far as No see no shoot type of code, what prevents you from just targeting the tile the alien is in with area fire or a rocket blast?? See what I mean? It's not a simple problem to deal with. This is very difficult problem that stems from the very fact that you, the player, controls every soldier on the battlefield. Just to clarify I said crazy unlucky, not that he was crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Just to clarify I said crazy unlucky, not that he was crazyLOL, how do you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcomnaut Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 LOL, how do you know? I can clarify that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Did your mother have you tested? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderGr Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Althrough Squad Sight sounds realistic, it removes fun from the game. Aliens shooting from other side of map, through roof to lower level, from other side of building or from other room in their base. 90% of time they miss badly and just give away their location which makes exploring not fun at all. Is this bug or intended, IMHO, it should be removed for sake of fun. It is not only realistic, it is exactly as Chris stated. Squadsight is an advantage the human player will always have against the aliens, because you cannot do anything, as a developer, to remove it. So, the aliens have to have it, as well, as a balancing issue. It is, maybe, the only balancing thing the developers have done that does not water down the game. A reason for celebration for me and the like-minded individuals! Hurray! They AI is still being worked out. The aliens will be more picky on their shots, hopefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 because you cannot do anything, as a developer, to remove it.Actually, there is a way to fix it, but it makes the game very un-fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThunderGr Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 Actually, there is a way to fix it, but it makes the game very un-fun. The only way I think of is to not allow a soldier to fire outside his visibility range. This would make weapon ranges worthless since all weapons have a range higher than the visibility range of the soldier. Snipers would lose almost all usability, as well as machinegunners and rocketeers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) The only way I think of is to not allow a soldier to fire outside his visibility range. This would make weapon ranges worthless since all weapons have a range higher than the visibility range of the soldier. Snipers would lose almost all usability, as well as machinegunners and rocketeers...Actually, you have to completely remove the players ability to assign area targets and put a matrix of flags on each soldier that indicates what targets he can actually and allow him to only fire at those. In essence, there is targeting AI for the human soldiers so the main of role player at that point becomes telling units where to move to just like a real commander does. If you take to the next level you don't even see the map directly (unless one of your soldiers represents you then you show only what that soldier can see), you get reports on alien locations from your AI soldiers. Like I said, un-fun. Edited July 10, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcomnaut Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 It is not only realistic, it is exactly as Chris stated. Squadsight is an advantage the human player will always have against the aliens, because you cannot do anything, as a developer, to remove it. So, the aliens have to have it, as well, as a balancing issue. This is exactly what I mean. This is artificialy created "balancing" issue which does not help aliens at all but ruins exploration fun for players. Maybe need to fix implementation, so aliens shoot only if lets say 80%+ to hit rating, otherwise they can do something better that lose all their action points without doing any damage. I dont want AI to be dumb, but they act dumb right now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted July 10, 2013 Share Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) This is exactly what I mean. This is artificialy created "balancing" issue which does not help aliens at all but ruins exploration fun for players. Maybe need to fix implementation, so aliens shoot only if lets say 80%+ to hit rating, otherwise they can do something better that lose all their action points without doing any damage. I dont want AI to be dumb, but they act dumb right now How does it not help the aliens? Yes, they take long shots occasionally, but some of their weapons can one shot you from across the map. Maybe alien AI needs a tweak to determine when a long shot is worthwhile, like only if there is 20% chance to hit or something. I've had plenty of soldiers killed and wounded on terror maps from long shots. Realistically, most soldiers that are shot in battle have no idea where the shot came from. If they did, they wouldn't have exposed themselves to fire from that location in the first place unless there was no cover available all. Edited July 10, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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