Any thoughts on making multi tile enemies and weapons?

[Xeroxth]

Hi it’s been a time since I’ve returned to the forums but I’ve asked this before back in 2019. With early access my opinion has not changed. The current unmanned tank is really, really unbalanced for levels with them basically serving as a glorified bulldozer cleaning up walls without my soldiers having to waste APs throwing demolishing charges or shooting the cover out. Not only that they’re no different from a soldier with heavy grenade launchers but worse. I think back in Xenonauts 1 tanks were a lot more balanced having their size being the hindrance to their fire power.

Are there still be any plans to rebalance the current tanks or add new multi tile tanks and aliens?

[Chris]

34 minutes ago, Xeroxth said:

Hi it’s been a time since I’ve returned to the forums but I’ve asked this before back in 2019. With early access my opinion has not changed. The current unmanned tank is really, really unbalanced for levels with them basically serving as a glorified bulldozer cleaning up walls without my soldiers having to waste APs throwing demolishing charges or shooting the cover out. Not only that they’re no different from a soldier with heavy grenade launchers but worse. I think back in Xenonauts 1 tanks were a lot more balanced having their size being the hindrance to their fire power.

Are there still be any plans to rebalance the current tanks or add new multi tile tanks and aliens?

None of the balance is set in stone - if people think the MARS is overpowered then we'll tone it down. But I haven't seen it raised very often. By contrast, here's a player who beat the game on Commander saying he thinks the MARS just isn't good enough to be worth bothering with at its current price tag. What does everyone else reading this post think about the topic?

Bear in mind that the MARS is meant to be better than the average soldier - it's a lot more expensive than a soldier, it doesn't gain experience, and you can only have one of them per squad. Plus you need to invest in specialised research / engineering projects to keep it up to date. So whatever happens balance-wise, it does still need to be worth the investment.

Either way I don't think adding multi-tile tanks is the correct answer to the issue. Them being too big to use effectively in a lot of situations isn't really fun gameplay, and adding them to the game involves creating multi-tile pathfinding and a bunch of new UI because right now the MARS can be treated largely like a soldier because it follows most of the same rules (being a 1x1 unit). If the MARS is overpowered then we should just balance that instead.

[Serious Sponge]

If the MARS is meant to be better than the average Soldier, I do think it's a little underpowered. In particular, I feel that it should be able to withstand more punishment than it currently can as even when you slap the heavy plating onto it, it barely is able to take more than two shots from ballistic and magnetic weapons...which isn't much better than my soldiers, whom also can barely survive that much in some cases even when I give them Warden Armor.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Serious Sponge

[Sunnybuns]

@Chris I personally feel like the MARS could use a bit of a buff for the HP OR give it the machine gun 10 shot burst to suppress things. It has a 100 rounds and I would love to use all those rounds hehe.

 

I am using it on my Veteran Iron Man first playthrough and as a new player I love the look and feel of it. The fact that it can fit into the smaller UFOs and fight indoors alongside my troopers when the situation calls for it is a plus for me.

I do use it as a scouting unit since it can tank at least two hits reliably in the early game so it sees tons of action. However as the game progress I do run into an issue during the mid game. My main problem is that I cant repair lost HP during the field. What if my troopers could repair it to 65% or 75% of HP during combat, in exchange for an inventory slot and weight management? I feel like it would be perfect then, upgrading from the previous version of X1 while still having a unique unit in X2.

[Xeroxth]

19 minutes ago, Chris said:

None of the balance is set in stone - if people think the MARS is overpowered then we'll tone it down. But I haven't seen it raised very often. By contrast, here's a player who beat the game on Commander saying he thinks the MARS just isn't good enough to be worth bothering with at its current price tag. What does everyone else reading this post think about the topic?

I think it’s underpowered actually. That’s why I said they serve me better as a bulldozer and demolition vehicle than anything else. They’re basically a soldier with machine gun and grenade launcher but way more expensive, can’t level up and only marginally less squishy. Speaking of which I don’t think anyone were complaining about big unwieldy vehicles in Xenonauts 1 and stuff like Phoenix Point. On the opposite most people seeing an armored car barreling through buildings and killing everything in exchange for taking 4 soldier slots as great.

[Sunnybuns]

Absolutely! I always loved seeing your machine buddies fight alongside ya. That's why there's a longstanding tradition in giving tanks nicknames. Fingers crossed for a buff

[Serious Sponge]

I feel like the MARS is distinct enough in style that I personally wouldn't even call it a tank. It's design is very much reminiscent of the SWORDS TALON in real life where it's supposed to be closer to being an infantry soldier than a tank. I like the prospect of having this and I also like the idea of having light tanks like in Xenonauts 1, maaaaybe we could have both potentially? You have the choice between a bigger, more armored but slower tank that's more cumbersome or you could have a little remote infantry drone like the current MARS that's more maneuverable but doesn't have as much firepower. 

Though maaaybe not, since it was mentioned already how having a bigger, multi-tiled tank could make it more difficult to design the movement for.

[Senteliks]

I think that Mars in current state is not worth what it costs.

It's usability worns off very quickly, and it's just cheaper to throw on field Privates, since they are so much easier and affordable to replace, than the Mars, getting splinter like a can by any enemy that does heavy kinetic damage.

It just doesn't scale well, even before you hit mid game. So, far I used just for specific cases, when support makes most sense but that's very rare- and to be frank only reason I did took it on a field several times, it's because one square

Edited August 4, 2023 by Senteliks

[Vitruviansquid]

I'm gonna be honest. I never built a MARS in 36 hours of playing.

It has a recurring science cost, it has an engineering cost, it has this kind of cost and that kind of cost, and based on what I've seen on the forums and in-game, all I'm paying for is a thingy that can destroy cover and take a hit.

Well soldiers can destroy cover and soldiers with shields can take a hit so yeah, I'm not really seeing why I'd want to shell out in all the ways to get a MARS. And a soldier only costs 10k to lose unless you turn on armor destruction.

I do not think MARS needs a buff so much as it needs its own niche.

[Conductiv]

Build several MARS vehicles, all using heavy plating. used the missile launcher for a bit but mostly stuck to the cannon...the cannon makes it look and feel more like a tank as then it has significant ooph to punch through opposing armor, even though I wanted to use the MG as a coaxial gun the rangefinder just made the vehicle so much more reliable

its extremely expensive to run for what you get, and for the investment not really worth it despite the fun that they bring. mars can take 3-6 hits before it goes down, a shield soldier at 10K using a free shield takes about 2 before the shield goes down, then another 1 to be wounded. so durability wise it isn't that impressive...the benefit it has here though is its instant repair at base, as long as it doesn't kick the bucket it can be brought back in the field the next mission. but is that worth 25X!! the price and a unique upgrade path to keep it up to date.

while I can't say they are useless, the ability to basically create their own entry point into a building, instantly heal upon mission completion, ignore gas, morale and psionic effects, can't bleed and the ability to carry more powerful weaponry then equal tier soldiers while being generally more durable is definitely an advantage..just not a 240.000 dollars advantage

 

[Raffik]

6 hours ago, Sunnybuns said:

@Chris I personally feel like the MARS could use a bit of a buff for the HP OR give it the machine gun 10 shot burst to suppress things. It has a 100 rounds and I would love to use all those rounds hehe.

 

I am using it on my Veteran Iron Man first playthrough and as a new player I love the look and feel of it. The fact that it can fit into the smaller UFOs and fight indoors alongside my troopers when the situation calls for it is a plus for me.

I do use it as a scouting unit since it can tank at least two hits reliably in the early game so it sees tons of action. However as the game progress I do run into an issue during the mid game. My main problem is that I cant repair lost HP during the field. What if my troopers could repair it to 65% or 75% of HP during combat, in exchange for an inventory slot and weight management? I feel like it would be perfect then, upgrading from the previous version of X1 while still having a unique unit in X2.

agree. having 10 round burst fire mode for the secondary weapon would be great.

Field repair option would be nice ro have, but usually it is not necessary as the unit gets auto repaired after every mission anyway.

But I use it more for fire support and surprise assault breaching walls, not so much for scouting..

[Sunnybuns]

1 minute ago, Raffik said:

Field repair option would be nice ro have, but usually it is not necessary as the unit gets auto repaired after every mission anyway.

 

I disagree. If that things gets destroyed thats 350,000 down the drain that could have been used on gear and other stuff. If it's going to be so expensive and take shots, I want to repair it.

[Mr.Xia]

@Chris Not sure if its asked before, but would it be possible to mod multi-tile units in X2? Some of us still liked the mini-tanks from the previous game.

[Raffik]

2 hours ago, Sunnybuns said:

I disagree. If that things gets destroyed thats 350,000 down the drain that could have been used on gear and other stuff. If it's going to be so expensive and take shots, I want to repair it.

Well, cannot disagree about the costs (250k) :) I believe it depends on play style of course (I haven' t lost any MARS during 169 days on Veteran mode, although it gets hit in almost every tactical mission). If you scout with the MARS, you need to count with possibility, that it will get shot at. As I said, it would be nice to have, but not entirely necessary, if you take preemptive measures imo. 

[doubleskulls]

Chris was citing my post... I did build Mars, and then it got killed on one of the cleaner missions, which at the time I thought a necessary sacrifice to kill the VIP, and I could not recover the wreck to reduce rebuild costs - I lost half the squad as it was. For a long time I was looking at $250k to replace it and just could not justify that. $35k to hire a soldier and replace the warden armour. Its basically a 3:1 trade cost, just to repair a wreck.

My view is that MARS is good, its just overpriced. I'd suggest maybe $150k to build / $75 to replace would represent a better cost/value ratio than at present. At that level you are basically saying 2:1 trade to repair MARS.

Its worth bearing in mind that if you skip MARS also leads to other costs for Engineering Upgrades, that you may also avoid, i.e. Alloy plating (500k), Reinforced Plating (750k) - I don't use additional armour 'plates (although arguably you may want them if you rely on Sentry guns for base defence). Both rocket upgrades are another $200k, plus the other upgrades if you really want them. 

Having played both Veteran and Commander I think there is a fairly big difference on the difficult curve. Veteran is more forgiving tactically (so you suffer fewer losses) and gives more money strategically, so the very hard choices on what you spend money on aren't quite so hard as on Commander. On Veteran I had a MARS, used it the whole campaign and never really thought about it too much. 

[Mr.Xia]

The MARS to me is an early game clutch, designed to be an expansive soldier unit that has some perks(smashing through walls, godly sniper cannon) to make it highly attractive among a sea of privates that you have yet to rank up, but I do agree that the $250k price is just too much(its almost 2 MARS for a mid-tier aircraft). $150k seemed more reasonable as suggested.

[Xeroxth]

16 hours ago, Serious Sponge said:I like the prospect of having this and I also like the idea of having light tanks like in Xenonauts 1, maaaaybe we could have both potentially? You have the choice between a bigger, more armored but slower tank that's more cumbersome or you could have a little remote infantry drone like the current MARS that's more maneuverable but doesn't have as much firepower. 

I very much agree with this idea, having both would be very nice. Especially with the current balance in which the MARS basically became irrelevant by the time the mantids and sebillians roll around. Having a tank to tip the scale the moment anti gravity tech is complete would make the addition of more dangerous aliens in the future late game much more bearable.

[cman1983]

I like the new smaller version of the mars but the seem to be destructible to easy as the cleaners and some aliens have great first accuracy then again if they were covered by shields before start this wouldn't be a problem what about even having the side and back doors closed wen the copter lands or like av said before dropped in at a safer/another point on the game map as tbf the copter must have sensors for hear etc so would no a safe deployment point also I'd like the option of the guns at first to be between the 1s just now and a black market variety 

[cman1983]

I also think that the promotion should be harder eg more kills more missions etc and the trading should just improve the soldier stays eg up 4 for accuracy or up 2 for tu rather than make them straight promoted 

[bifohe6676]

On 8/5/2023 at 12:25 AM, Sunnybuns said:

@Chris I personally feel like the MARS could use a bit of a buff for the HP OR give it the machine gun 10 shot burst to suppress things. It has a 100 rounds and I would love to use all those rounds hehe.

 

I am using it on my Veteran Iron Man first playthrough and as a new player I love the look and feel of it. The fact that it can fit into the smaller UFOs and fight indoors alongside my troopers when the situation calls for it is a plus for me.

I do use it as a scouting unit since it can tank at least two hits reliably in the early game so it sees tons of action. However as the game progress I do run into an issue during the mid game. My main problem is that I cant repair lost HP during the field. What if my troopers could repair it to 65% or 75% of HP during combat, in exchange for an inventory slot and weight management? I feel like it would be perfect then, upgrading from the previous version of X1 while still having a unique unit in X2.

Yeah I agree, I was a bit bummed when I took it for the first time on a mission and realized that you realistically will never put a dent into the 100 round box of ammo of the secondary machine gun, a 10 round burst would be nice here, other than that I like the different configurations it provides for different playstyles.

And yeah slightly more armor if you are going for the heavy version would also be nice, right now I think even with the TU deduction it is still quite agile but not armored enough, I sometimes feel like I should maybe even take the light armor version and get even more mobility for wall-ramming/cover-destruction out of it, if the heavy one can't survive a particularly unlucky roll anyway with 250K down the drain.

Speaking of the costs, yeah maybe decrease the build cost, but in turn increase the upkeep, I feel like the 5K is more a symbolic gesture than a proper upkeep cost considering your guys will fix the thing after missions instantly.