Jump to content

Recommended Posts

I'm sure this must have come up, so apologies if I'm repeating a thread I've not been able to put my finger on.

I like the concept that everything has to be reverse engineered. Your pilots can't fly alien ships. They have to be changed to enable humans to interface with them etc.

But plasma weapons seems a little in the middle. You can't store them in your arsenal, but they can be used on the battlescape. Having used them there, the Xenonauts are strangely possessed to sell them off at then end of a mission.

If they are clearly functional, then surely Xenonauts would keep hold of them and use them when needed. It just seems a bit silly.

You'd also think they would be a more direct link into xenonaut plasma research, since the troops can already use them in the field.

Personally, I'd remove their capability of being picked up in the field and used, under the excuse that they are actually an extension of the alien's physiology. Therefore, more extensive reverse engineering would be required.

As I said, I'm sure this must have come up as it does strike me as a little odd.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But if you have at least some of the ammo left over after each mission, then common sense would suggest that it's an asset to be used in future missions. Yes it is bulky, but it's a potentially lethal weapon.

It really seems like a fudge to discard it so readily.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if the pistol or rifle explodes if the powesource (clip/mag/watever) is connected for too long? So you need to disconnect it, but since noone has figured out how it's supposed to be done they can only do it by disabeling the weapon and takeing it apart? (presumably after emptying the mag/clip/whatever in a fireing range)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think of it as an American soldier ditching his M-16 to use an enemies AK-47 when his ammo runs dry.

Yes he would use it if he was desperate but when he could he would get back the weapon he was comfortable with, could use more effectively, and could actually reload.

The situation would be worse in the case of alien plasma weapons as they aren't designed to be used by human hands and may not work in quite the way he would expect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What if the pistol or rifle explodes if the powesource (clip/mag/watever) is connected for too long? So you need to disconnect it,

Well, the aliens seem to wander around with them quite happily for ages with one, while they hunt down my poor little soldiers. So that's some evidence from the ground that they can be operated for enough time for a combat mission.

That being the case, I'd be happy to have the option of letting one of my guys try it out in the following mission. Or just rigging something to depress the rather human looking triggers remotely to see what happens over time at a safe distance (remember Iceland)

Retrieval evidence from within a captured craft would also provide evidence of clips stored away from guns, or power points or whatever. That nothing like that has been mentioned, it would seem that they are just like any other weapon.

You are hunting down the last alien. Your troops have surrounded it's location. Unfortunately, it's seen Predator and sets it's plamsa rifle mag to overload, killing everything in a square mile of it's location :-(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, the aliens seem to wander around with them quite happily for ages with one, while they hunt down my poor little soldiers. So that's some evidence from the ground that they can be operated for enough time for a combat mission.
Yes which is why you can pick them up safely during a mission, but in my hypothetical situation they don't last long enough (without knowlege of how to maintain the weapon) to store them safely for the time between missions. (also they last indefinetly in the hands of aliens because they can maintain them)
Retrieval evidence from within a captured craft would also provide evidence of clips stored away from guns, or power points or whatever. That nothing like that has been mentioned, it would seem that they are just like any other weapon.
While true it has nothing to do with how to disconnect the clip from the weapon which if I recall corecctly is stated as impossible in the xenopedia?
That being the case, I'd be happy to have the option of letting one of my guys try it out in the following mission. Or just rigging something to depress the rather human looking triggers remotely to see what happens over time at a safe distance (remember Iceland)

You are hunting down the last alien. Your troops have surrounded it's location. Unfortunately, it's seen Predator and sets it's plamsa rifle mag to overload, killing everything in a square mile of it's location :-(

I'm not following theese two paragraphs. well possibly the second but I'm not sure what the point of it is? Or why it would cause such a huge explosion?

PS. Gauddlike's explanation is the relevant I think. (since we are discussing this from a soldiers perspective instead of gameplay) I'm not sure the soldier would consider damage to be more important then if he can aim the weapon properly. You as a commander might think it more important but the soldier should be more attached to his rifle and consider the ones he can use to be superior.

Edited by Gorlom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's really sad that we won't be able to equip alien plasma guns. They look so slick and sexy...

I have a suggestion about plasma clips. They need to be recycled into laser cells and other alenium-based clips that future guns may use. Let's say...2 alien clips for 1 human clip.

Edited by SilverMoonFlare
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Psssst. The research tree isn't fully revealed.

Those of us who've had a gander through the assets before Chris tidied them up know there's more stuff to unlock and some parts have direct links to the alien weaponry. *hint hint*

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes which is why you can pick them up safely during a mission, but in my hypothetical situation they don't last long enough (without knowlege of how to maintain the weapon) to store them safely for the time between missions. (also they last indefinetly in the hands of aliens because they can maintain them)

Yes, but there's no mention of any such thing in the existing tech. So, where I suggest having them attached to the alien's physiology you suggest that the weapons require some sort of maintenance otehrwise they become inert. At least, there would be some sort of reason placed in the game, as currently it makes no sense.

As for the maintenance point, it's not supported by the gameplay. I could let an alien unit wander around for hour after hour real time in a mission and nothing would happen to their weapon. Likewise a plasma weapon dropped in round 1 of that mission would still fine picked up formt he ground hours later and used.

Further, you would need some sort of nod in the alien ships to maintain such devices. Some sort fo way of closing the "oh, that's how they maintain them" loop.

While true it has nothing to do with how to disconnect the clip from the weapon which if I recall corecctly is stated as impossible in the xenopedia?

As I said, I'm fine about there being a finite amount of ammo in the weapon. However, it's only common sense that the weapons are available until all of that ammo has been used up. It simply isn't logical to throw away a perfectly good plasma rifle with only one round fired in it.

I'm not following theese two paragraphs. well possibly the second but I'm not sure what the point of it is? Or why it would cause such a huge explosion?

Paragraph one is responding to your idea that the clip may explode if power was allowed to build up in it. I think in real life you would simply conduct some research into that to see. Since none of the aliens blow up, I think it's safe to say that there's nothing wrong with the weapons, and that this is a bit of a fudge.

PS. Gauddlike's explanation is the relevant I think. (since we are discussing this from a soldiers perspective instead of gameplay) I'm not sure the soldier would consider damage to be more important then if he can aim the weapon properly. You as a commander might think it more important but the soldier should be more attached to his rifle and consider the ones he can use to be superior.

But the game is all about my decisions as a commander. Having an option arbitrarily removed because it unbalances the game, simply shows that the game isn't balanced. The reason that the soldiers might not like to use it is a bit weak. Since when did we Rookie sacrificing guys care less what the soldiers in any of these games want?

Being forced in what you can or can't sell takes a bit of freedom away from the player.

I can't say that I've seen anything in the aobve posts that has changed my mind. The ability to pick up and use the rifles only to sell them automatically at the end of each mission is a clumsy mechanism to ensure you can't use them in future. It jars my immersion in the game.

Solutions -

- Remove the ability to use them in the field - reasons being that they are integrated into alien biology/ brain patterns or whatever.

- Have them avalaible for continued use in their bulky inaccurate way until the ammo runs out.

- Remove the automatic selling at the end of each mission for weapons.

Finally, who buys the things if they don't work, can't be maintained or recharged, are too inaccurate to work properly and may explode killing people? Xenonauts as scam artists :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like being able to grab one of their weapons to use if I am out of ammo, I don't find it a problem when they are sold off either.

You could pick up an assault rifle off a downed AI trooper and use that until it ran out of ammo as well, that is no reason to always use that assault rifle.

You could use your first solution but I would prefer to keep them available in an emergency.

No you can't use them well, you can't reload and you would really be better off with a weapon you can use properly but if you don't have another available then why not use it.

You would be better off with a stick than no weapon at all.

Number two would involve adding a mechanic to record and track ammo levels on each weapon.

Either that or you could just say that the scientists at the base can recharge the weapon using their available tools.

That way you have the full number of shots at the start of each mission but still can't reload.

Number three doesn't solve anything.

All it does is make it more of an issue if you can't equip them again.

If your second option was used (or my version of it) then this would have to be done also.

As for the last point which military organisation can you think of that wouldn't buy high tech weapons?

They could be getting funnelled into other nations R&D, issued to guardsmen in some positions, deliberately overloaded to be used as powerful mining explosives, who knows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, but there's no mention of any such thing in the existing tech. So, where I suggest having them attached to the alien's physiology you suggest that the weapons require some sort of maintenance otehrwise they become inert. At least, there would be some sort of reason placed in the game, as currently it makes no sense.

As for the maintenance point, it's not supported by the gameplay. I could let an alien unit wander around for hour after hour real time in a mission and nothing would happen to their weapon. Likewise a plasma weapon dropped in round 1 of that mission would still fine picked up formt he ground hours later and used.

Not inert: Volitile. In my hypothetical scenario I said they would explode if you didn't remove the powersource. The buildup could easily be slow enough that it happens (doesn't go critical untill) after 2-3 days. Slow enough that they can last for a ground battle, but not slow enough that they could last from one ground battle to the next or be safe to store...

Wait your ground battles lasts hours of ingame time? How many time units/ action points are you spending?

I may have used the word "maintenance" sloppy. I just mean that the aliens can handle and prevent the overload I am poseing as a hypothetical addition to current lore.

Further, you would need some sort of nod in the alien ships to maintain such devices. Some sort fo way of closing the "oh, that's how they maintain them" loop.

But ... no, I wouldn't need any such nod. the xenopedia already says that it's "impossible to remove the clip, suggesting that the aliens has some kind of telepathic link with their weapons". It's already in there. I'm simply proposing you need telepathy to unload the clip and prevent the build up from reaching a critical charge. (or preventing it through flipping some telepathic safty switch that they had no time doing while dying)

Paragraph one is responding to your idea that the clip may explode if power was allowed to build up in it. I think in real life you would simply conduct some research into that to see. Since none of the aliens blow up, I think it's safe to say that there's nothing wrong with the weapons, and that this is a bit of a fudge.
Not "may"; will. I'm not claiming this to be official lore. This is my version. My ammendment to explain why you can't store those shitty rifles that you can't reload or aim with.

You are makeing assumptions of a time based nature which can easily be designed differently to suit my version. Your earlier post is also makeing assumptions about the magnitude of such an explosion resulting from an overload. I'm going to go ahead and claim that in my hypothetical version it is no stronger then an alenium grenade. It's still devestating to store but not Predator bad.

Finally, who buys the things if they don't work, can't be maintained or recharged, are too inaccurate to work properly and may explode killing people? Xenonauts as scam artists :-)

Tech companies that want to derrive new human (possibly not weapon related) technology from it.

Edited by Gorlom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like being able to grab one of their weapons to use if I am out of ammo, I don't find it a problem when they are sold off either.

You could pick up an assault rifle off a downed AI trooper and use that until it ran out of ammo as well, that is no reason to always use that assault rifle.

Okay, then I’d also want the option to keep one on a guy in the Chinook for future missions, in case of an emergency. I can see the appeal of it in play, I just think that the follow up logic of removing it afterwards is weak. Additional weapons could be available from the local troops, to achieve this effect.

You could use your first solution but I would prefer to keep them available in an emergency.

Well, you could always get weapons from the locals. In an emergency I mean.

No you can't use them well, you can't reload and you would really be better off with a weapon you can use properly but if you don't have another available then why not use it.

So, if they are handy in an emergency, I should have the option of keeping one for an emergency. But I can’t, because they mysteriously have to be sold off.

Number two would involve adding a mechanic to record and track ammo levels on each weapon.

Either that or you could just say that the scientists at the base can recharge the weapon using their available tools.

That way you have the full number of shots at the start of each mission but still can't reload.

I agree that it’s an unwieldy exercise to keep track of your depleting ammo stocks. A simpler solution is surely to remove the capability and use local weapons or you get to keep them, they recharge, but are still really awkward and heavy. They are either usable assets or they aren’t. If they are, I’d like to be able to control what happens to them and not lose them because the game needs to obviously tweak itself.

As for the last point which military organisation can you think of that wouldn't buy high tech weapons?

They could be getting funnelled into other nations R&D, issued to guardsmen in some positions, deliberately overloaded to be used as powerful mining explosives, who knows.

Yeah, if you wanted them to blow up, mining companies would be ideal. That’s assuming they blow up of course, of which there’s not much evidence. But if they can be issued to guardsmen, I’d like them to be issued to my own guys.

Wait your ground battles lasts hours of ingame time? How many time units/ action points are you spending?

My troops are all steroid beasts :-) No, I mean as a test, if you let the game run turn after turn, it will have zero effect on the aliens ability to wield or manipulate fallen plasma weapons.

I may have used the word "maintenance" sloppy. I just mean that the aliens can handle and prevent the overload I am poseing as a hypothetical addition to current lore.

And that would be a possible solution. The magazines are unstable and are telepathically suppressed through contact with the alemium. It’s not supported by the gameplay though, unless a single terrified alien in a barn can control all the plasma weapons in the field to prevent an overload. And that it’s quite happy to do it. And that it applies to all aliens, including the mechanised ones.

Paragraph one is responding to your idea that the clip may explode if power was allowed to build up in it. I think in real life you would simply conduct some research into that to see. Since none of the aliens blow up, I think it's safe to say that there's nothing wrong with the weapons, and that this is a bit of a fudge.

Not "may"; will. I'm not claiming this to be official lore. This is my version. My ammendment to explain why you can't store those shitty rifles that you can't reload or aim with.

I’d like to think that we have the chance on the forums to tweak aspects of the game so that the best, most balanced version is what we end up with on release, rather than your version or my version.

Having them overload isn’t supported on evidence from the battlescape. Additionally, there’s not a hint of such things in the base layout or rumours of blown up lab assistants, although someone definitely suggested this as an option. Such observations would suggest that in correcting a flaw, other flaws would be just as apparent.

In summary

- I think that picking up and using exotic alien tech on the battlescape was considered to be a good idea. Inaccuracy and weight were used to counter obvious advantages.

- I think that the game “cheats” you out of the further use of that equipment, by arbitrarily selling it, even though you are able to use it, albeit ineffectively.

- That there really isn’t sufficient in game reasoning behind removing it from your team. You are able to use it without the telepathic link mentioned in the Xenopedia.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’d like to think that we have the chance on the forums to tweak aspects of the game so that the best, most balanced version is what we end up with on release, rather than your version or my version.
We seem to have opposing goals. I'm trying to ammend the current lore to explain the current mechanics, you seem to be trying to use the lack of explanation and your preferences to change the mechanic. I'd rather you reject my suggested ammendments based on that they don't result in what you want, than insist on that the battlescape doesn't support my versions exploding rifles. Battlescape has nothing to do with the overload in my suggestion. It saves me alot of time if I don't try to solve a problem you simply just don't want solved.

PS. Or are you playing devils advocate?

Having them overload isn’t supported on evidence from the battlescape. Additionally, there’s not a hint of such things in the base layout or rumours of blown up lab assistants, although someone definitely suggested this as an option. Such observations would suggest that in correcting a flaw, other flaws would be just as apparent

Have your ground battle ever gone through a day and night cycle? The battlescape doesn't have anything to do with the buildup if it is slow enough. If we are trying to complement the lore to explain the current situation the buildup WILL be slow... It's a byproduct not a function.

There wouldn't be any rumors of blown up labassistants since most likely the weapon would be running hot and have noticible indications that it is overchargeing long before it goes critical... Maybe even some warning lights or sounds so that the aliens don't blow up their own armoury. The clip would be emptied on a fireing range to prevent further buildup and the weapon would be completly inert and safe to dismantle in the name of science.

I'm not entirely clear on what additional flaws you are referring to? You are naturaly assuming things (sometimes directly contrary what I have already said in my posts... the time it takes for a rifle to go critical beeing the most glaring example) that support your intent to change the mechanic.

Edited by Gorlom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Plasma is just the fourth state matter can be in. The first three being solid, liquid and gaseous. I don't think plasma is radioactive per se. Ofc you can allways decide the matter used for the plasma is, or something in the fireing process makes the weapon irradiating it's user.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not terribly radioactive actually, but indeed in this circumstance, very hot.

I'll say this; In Xenonauts at the moment, the canon is that we can't aim the things, making them very ineffective in human hands, in addition to the loading/charging thing. Given a choice, a soldier would probably not want to use it. It's heavy, it's really hard to pull the trigger, and if you manage it, you still can't hit anything worth a damn. Better to use a precision rifle or whatever.

I understand your frustration thothkins, but I don't see it as such a stretch. Given the choice to earn much needed cash, or equip a soldier with a weapon that's likely to get him killed, as a commander I'd go with the first option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, of course there’s a bit of devil’s advocacy involved. Discussing multiple options is a good way to reach a conclusion that works.

All of which is moot as Chris said

For the whole alien weapon thing, I've made them usuable because I want players to have access to some kind of lootable weapon if they find themselves completely out of ammo for their soldiers. It's a gameplay thing. I'm not going to rewrite the entire Xenopedia to fill in every small plot hole, as you'll always be able to find more of them if you look hard enough and I think we've done a fairly good job of keeping the story and universe generally believable so you'll have to turn a blind eye to the few instances where it's not possible without tying ourselves in knots.

So, that’s them definitely in there. However, one of my points is really that, once they are there, you should get to keep them. The above just supports what I said above.

- I think that picking up and using exotic alien tech on the battlescape was considered to be a good idea. Inaccuracy and weight were used to counter obvious advantages.

- I think that the game “cheats” you out of the further use of that equipment, by arbitrarily selling it, even though you are able to use it, albeit ineffectively.

- That there really isn’t sufficient in game reasoning behind removing it from your team. You are able to use it without the telepathic link mentioned in the Xenopedia.

The rest of our posts involve trying to supply some reason why Xenonauts have to sell the items.

Gorlom’s is that there is a gradual power up of the Alenium magazines that would put your soldiers at risk. For me that just doesn’t cut it, based on what you can see in the game, but is again rendered moot as there’s no pending update in the Xenopedia.

My preferred solution is that, rather than try and fudge the game. You keep the things. They can’t aim. They are prohibitively heavy. But the game has given you these things, so you should be able to take one if you want, if only for target practice.

No fudging. No need for any forced justifications at all that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gorlom’s is that there is a gradual power up of the Alenium magazines that would put your soldiers at risk. For me that just doesn’t cut it, based on what you can see in the game, but is again rendered moot as there’s no pending update in the Xenopedia.

Nonononono! Do you purposly missunderstand me? I'm saying that the gradual buildup makes them impossible to store, without first rendering them useless for combat (ie fireing the gun untill it's empty or disabeling it in some other way). Not that they are a danger to your troops! Stop putting words in my mouth!

/sigh! :(

Oh well as you said it's all moot (because of the second link in my signature). ;)

Edited by Gorlom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nonononono! Do you purposly missunderstand me? I'm saying that the gradual buildup makes them impossible to store,

isn't that going down the same path? there's a power build up that makes them dangerous to store. Therefore they are a danger to your base and soldiers and have to be fired off. By not taking care of this, then then your staff is at risk, as are your soldiers, which is what I said?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only if you assume the explosion to be large enough to damage anything outside of the armoury/storage.

Given that you keep going back to "seeing no evidence of this in ground battle" I assumed that you were going along those lines again. That they were hazardous to the soldier carrying it. So I guess it was mostly along the same lines.

Edited by Gorlom
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do think generally it makes for a better game that what you are told in the back story is what you see in the rest of the game. I can't see that as not being fair. As the timescales of your power up became clearer, then it's something that noone really is going to notice in any kind of sensible mission length.

I do still advocate having the things available to close this loop off, but do appreciate that it's an extra task in a small mountain of extra tasks.

I'll just try not to make little "clunking" noises every time the weapons are sold out form under me at the end of missions :-)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do think generally it makes for a better game that what you are told in the back story is what you see in the rest of the game. I can't see that as not being fair. As the timescales of your power up became clearer, then it's something that noone really is going to notice in any kind of sensible mission length.

I do still advocate having the things available to close this loop off, but do appreciate that it's an extra task in a small mountain of extra tasks.

:confused: The feature is working as intended. This is the way Chris wants it, according to the quote you posted. You will simply have to figure out some kind of explanation that works for you.

The task would be to add to the Xenopedia entry and that could prove to be a neverending task.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going with the "let's pretend that I can't pick them" up option :-)

Having read the xenopedia for plasma rifle and pistol, I didn't see the need to change anything and still be able to keep them post mission.

- You can use them on the battlefield

- They are awkward

- They are inaccurate

I don't see "and weighs enough that you think you're carrying a small horse." but that's an effect too. All things that would still be the case whether you get to keep them or not.

If you really wanted to, you could add something itno the next generation of plasma generating weapons further down the research tree. " Due to the number of soldiers suffering hernias carrying small horse like plasma rifles, we have decided to reverse engineer them." Again, I imagine that the advantages should be pretty obvious without having to alter any text.

actually

The damage potential of the weapon is also limited compared to what the underlying technology could achieve if used in a more substantial rifle arrangement
already covers this.

Xenotext below. Beware spoliers for those who haven't researched this stuff yet!

The Alien Plasma Rifle is a two-handed alien weapon approximately the size of a ballistic assault rifle that generates a charged bolt of superheated plasma when used. With a longer barrel and a more significant plasma generation array than is packed into the Alien Plasma Pistol, it has both a longer range and significantly more damage potential. Battlefield intelligence suggests that the weapon is the basic weapon for alien combat units and it is a powerful all-round weapon. Much like the Alien Plasma Pistol, the Alien Plasma Rifle can be handled by Xenonaut troops on the battlefield but it cannot be reloaded and is inaccurate in human hands.

Laboratory tests suggest that the weapon is roughly equivalent to ballistic assault rifles in range and accuracy, but it is substantially more dangerous and can even pose a credible threat to Xenonaut armoured vehicles such as the Ferret Armoured Car. The armour penetration is greater than that of the Alien Plasma Pistol and will negate most but not all of the protection offered by the "Jackal" Combat Armour. Nevertheless, it is still recommended that a soldier be armoured where possible when engaging enemy combatant units - this weapon will almost certainly kill any unarmoured soldier hit by the projectile outright.

The extraterrestial Plasma Pistol is a weapon roughly ten inches in length that generates a charged bolt of superheated plasma. While it shares certain design similarities with human firearms, it appears to be ergonomically designed for the alien wielding it and is actually rather difficult to use due to biological differences between humans and the alien creatures (notably finger length and joint positioning). There is also no obvious targeting mechanism or way to remove the clip from the weapon, leading our scientists to theorise that there is some form of telepathic link between the wielder and his weapon. As a result of this, Xenonaut soldiers are able to use the weapon on the battlefield but suffer severe accuracy penalties for doing so, and cannot reload the weapon. Therefore this should only be done in emergencies.

The pistol appears to be a light weapon used predominantly as a sidearm or a primary weapon for alien non-combatants. Laboratory tests suggest that it has a relatively short operational range compared to most plasma weaponry, but a slightly longer range than a ballistic weapon of similar battlefield utility (the M9 pistol). Beyond this range the accuracy of the weapon drops off sharply. The damage potential of the weapon is also limited compared to what the underlying technology could achieve if used in a more substantial rifle arrangement, but in practice this still equates to a highly lethal battlefield weapon that can incinerate a man in a single shot. Tests of armour penetration suggest that "Jackal" combat armour is moderately effective at soaking up the damage from these weapons, but that Basic Armour offers almost no protection at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having read the xenopedia for plasma rifle and pistol, I didn't see the need to change anything and still be able to keep them post mission.

But Chris for gameplay reasons do NOT want you to be able to keep them? :eek:

So the task would be to fill whatever plothole that makes you think that you should be able to store and equip them for the next mission.

(I personally think that is covered already with the phrase "Therefore this should only be done in emergencies." in the plasma pistol entry)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...