I don't get Furies

[kabill]

Huh, yeah, you're right. There's also air combat images for them and everything.

The only trouble, then, is the ground combat images. That aside, it would be really easy to add them in.

@dpelectric: yeah, I think new UFOs might be moving too far away from the original point here. Still, interesting to know there's still some assets there.

[KevinHann]

Well ain't the entire point of modding finding ways to expand on the original material? After all if you don't like them nobody is forcing you to use them; on the other hand I sincerely don't believe they would be impossible to balance or will introduce overwhelming problems.

Plus we have the master of rebalancing right here, the producer of top box-office UFO material, it would be insane not to trust him with this potentially incredible material!

[skaianDestiny]

Well ain't the entire point of modding finding ways to expand on the original material? After all if you don't like them nobody is forcing you to use them; on the other hand I sincerely don't believe they would be impossible to balance or will introduce overwhelming problems.

Plus we have the master of rebalancing right here, the producer of top box-office UFO material, it would be insane not to trust him with this potentially incredible material!

The main problem is the ground sprites.

[kabill]

Plus we have the master of rebalancing right here, the producer of top box-office UFO material, it would be insane not to trust him with this potentially incredible material!

If you mean "person who redesigned UFOs in such a way that the AI is masterfully inept at fighting in them" then I think you might be right!

In all seriousness, though, I'd quite happily work with/provide pointers for someone with the artistic talent needed to pull it off. If nothing else, having those resources available would be useful for any other modders looking to expand the UFO pool.

[KevinHann]

Great, now where are the artistically gifted people?

[kabill]

Just put a shout out on the modding forum in case anyone is interested.

[KevinHann]

Thank you, mate! Your very name should draw the top notch talent from around the internet!

[dpelectric]

Ok, here's what I'm thinking.

Furies need a purpose. I think the strike cruiser could be it. As stated above, its utter destruction would not cost the player any goodies, since a crash site is not created. And strike cruisers are a bit underwhelming right now, rarely appearing and not posing a truly serious threat. So upgrading them would give them greater relevance as well.

1. Strike cruisers currently have 4200 HP. A Marauder with two plasma torps (900 dmg each) or fusion torps (1200 dmg each) and a magstorm (20 dmg x 80 ammo) or plasma blaster (15 dmg x 80 ammo) can deal 3000-4000 dmg on full depletion. Add a Corsair or whatever and it's over. If you doubled the strike cruiser's HP to 8400, you would need two Marauders plus another aircraft to take it down (even given high-level weapon tech) making it a major pain in the butt. I would remove the chance of fighter escort to simplify that variable and make the strike cruiser a singular threat

2. Strike cruisers currently begin to appear at ticker value 550 (if I'm interpreting the game files correctly). Regular cruisers appear at value 450. So if you made the Fury unlock with a cruiser datacore, rather than a singularity core, this would give you time to construct an X-120 before strike cruisers make their appearance. Also, cruiser datacores would not be destroyed at mission end so you could use them (would this work as simply as singularity cores? would the game just hold them in inventory?)

3. A Fury currently requires 50 alenium to build (Marauders 20). I'd downgrade that to 40, as it's unlikely the player will have that kind of alenium to spare, particularly considering the ongoing need to build Marauders.

4. A battleship's value would be reduced by making the singularity core tied only to a singularity cannon. And I've always felt that the reward for battleship GC is insufficient given the risks once you've bagged a praetor. I'd significantly increase the payoff for assaulting this vessel (but I can't seem to find the file or string to do so!)

So Furies would be available towards the end of the midgame/beginning lategame, with the intended purpose of countering now-formidable strike cruisers. They could, of course, be used against everything else, but at the cost of negating any crash sites. This might, undesirably, compound a player's late-game air superiority, but the high cost ($600K, 40 alenium, a cruiser datacore and 30 alloys) would at least put a dent in your Marauder production.

Thoughts?

Edited June 25, 2014 by dpelectric

[kabill]

Few comments:

- Not sure there's any need to remove the escort from the Strike Cruiser. So long as you check that the total HP of all the UFOs are within the damage capabilities of the planes you think should have a chance of taking them, it's not really a problem. (Also, I don't know whether you can, without also taking away the escorts from regular Bombers as well. I've never tried setting a UFO type for a mission blank after a certain point, but I reckon this is likely to result in a CTD).

- Unlocking the Fury with the Cruiser datacore seems reasonable, but I wouldn't link building Furies to the Cruiser datacores. This is because - IIRC - cruisers stop appearing after a certain point and you'd lose the ability to make more Furies. Instead, I'd suggest either removing the prerequisite entirely, or linking it to another item (e.g. the anti-gravity generator) which is present in all UFOs past the point at which you want to build them. (I can't remember whether Landing Ships have anti-grav generators. If they don't, that's even better because you could use anti-grav as the unlock for Furies instead).

- In terms of battleships, I think their reward *is* the Praetor (and the first Singularity Core you get). And since Furies were never being built in the first place, there not being any reason to bag more than one Battleship isn't any different from vanilla. So I wouldn't be too concerned with making them more valuable in terms of their loot, not for the purposes of this mod anyway.

[Dranak]

You're neglecting the hull value for Marauders in the autoresolve calculations. A fully upgraded Marauder has an autoresolve strength of 4750, so unless you further buffed the autoresolve strength of Strike Cruisers (normal is equal to UFO HP) two Marauders would still kill them shortly after they start spawning. I'm also not sure how you would remove the escort chance without removing it from all bombing runs as that appears to be a global yes/no toggle for if escorts can spawn for the entire mission type. 100 points on the ticker also equates to about 10 days, which is probably not enough time to research and build a new type of aircraft for the one problem it is designed to solve, so you'd be left with plasma equipped Marauders to do it. Any unless bombing missions were changed to be able to run more than one per wave, you'd still only ever build a single Fury since they are crazy fast and have global range.

The alenium/alloys/cash values for UFOs is actually a property of props in the ground combat, which require editing those individual props in the map editor to change.

I like the idea of the Fury, but without major changes to air combat it's very much a solution in search of a problem.

[kabill]

100 points on the ticker also equates to about 10 days, which is probably not enough time to research and build a new type of aircraft for the one problem it is designed to solve

100 ticker points is a month. There's 3.3(ish) ticker points per game-day.

[Dranak]

100 ticker points is a month. There's 3.3(ish) ticker points per game-day.

You're right. Not sure why I thought it was 0.00625 points per minute.

[dpelectric]

Ok, then:

1. A Fury is linked to recurring anti-gravity generators. There has to be some kind of reasonable prereq or they'd be available from day 1

2. The escorts are left in but calculated towards total alien squadron HP.

3. A strike cruiser's autoresolve strength is increased proportionately.

4. The chance of bombing missions is increased by maybe a third (bombers and strike cruisers are too rare anyhow IMHO)

I think the general idea is to only have one Fury, two at the absolute most. Their cost and range would pretty much gravitate to this. But in addition to dealing with much stronger strike cruisers, I was hoping it might introduce a choice in the game between crash sites or not with UFOs in general. And permit you to get to those targets you suspect of sinking cruise ships in the middle of the Pacific.

[kabill]

Sorry, my point about the pre-requisite was only in terms of manufacturing, not research (i.e. remove the need for resources other than alenium and alloys to actually build it). Obviously a pre-req is needed for research, yes.

Other than that, sounds good. One additional thing you might want to consider is increasing the maximum number of UFOs which can spawn in the late game. One of the advantages of the Fury is that it can obliterate anything by itself, making it more efficient than other aircraft at bringing down UFOs. If it becomes a struggle to keep on top of the UFOs with regular planes due to the number you need, this might make the Fury more valuable as well.

[dpelectric]

Ok, I'll look into increasing late-game UFO numbers, too.

To me this could re-introduce Furies into the game fairly easily. It's just a matter of changing pre-existing game files. No artwork or creating whole new UFO classes or strings or complex balancing involved. The X-120 and the strike cruiser and everything else is right there ready to go (and I might also increase the bomber's HP, though not as radically). I couldn't see this being worth doing, "a solution in search of a problem", as Dranak notes, if it wasn't comparatively easy. Plus the simplicity makes it possible for me to tackle, too

I'm hoping players might enjoy seeing another fighter (back) in the game. Kabill, and Dranak, I'm hoping you guys don't mind if I PM you a few times in the next couple of days.

Edit: Oh, and how would I go about testing this? Would I need to get a mid-game save file from somebody so I don't have to laboriously start another game from scratch?

Edited June 25, 2014 by dpelectric

[kabill]

I couldn't see this being worth doing, "a solution in search of a problem", as Dranak notes, if it wasn't comparatively easy. Plus the simplicity makes it possible for me to tackle, too

In fairness, where you've got to with this is not just making Furies useful, but also adding an additional strategic element to the game. Whether to invest resources in Furies seems like it should be a fairly interesting mid-game decision to make now, considering all the other competing demands for resources at the same time.

(You can bother me whenever you like.)

[Dranak]

You're actually taking on something fairly complex when you look at how it connects to the rest of the game, so I wish you luck. It could make for a interesting alternative for the Geoscape. And feel free to PM away, but I'll be out of town for the next several days so I may not reply.

[dpelectric]

Huh, yeah, you're right. There's also air combat images for them and everything. The only trouble, then, is the ground combat images. That aside, it would be really easy to add them in.

Just had an idea. You're saying that the destroyer and/or dreadnaught is ready to go except the ground combat images?

What if you didn't need ground combat images?

What if the destroyer (or dreadnaught) was employed strictly as a terror mission vehicle?

I, and numerous other players, have complained about the fact that being good at air combat penalizes you with monotony in ground combat. The variety of missions shrinks to just repeated crash sites. I've voiced the opinion that I wish terror sites would just happen (the aliens being beamed down from orbit, or whatever) so they wouldn't disappear from the game. Particularly considering the fact that terror missions feature unique submaps that you don't see anywhere else.

Making a destroyer (or dreadnaught) the vehicle for this could be a really neat solution. One, it would introduce another type of UFO into the game. Two, it would keep terror missions in the game. And three, it would give the concept of re-introducing Furies extra validity.

I'm envisoning a destroyer that appears towards the onset of the late game, say ticker value 600. This destroyer would have a dedicated terror mission assigned to it, using already available assets. It would have a speed just over that of a Marauder, making it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for Marauders to engage. You would need to have an X-120 to shoot it down, and even that might vary depending upon how quickly you detected the ship, where on the geoscape it appeared, and how long it did the hokey-pokey before landing.

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. In combination with the Fury, it could add quite a bit to the late-game mix. Of course, concept is one thing, and execution and balance are another, and maybe I'm missing things.

Any input...?

[kabill]

I did think about having them as non-crash site UFOs, but I wasn't sure what role they'd play.

I think what you've suggested could work. I think I like the idea of unstoppable terror missions (there's room for unstoppable base attacks as well, possibly).

You could do with an in game explanation for why they don't produce crash sites, though. Or, you need to make them utterly immune to anything other than the Fury so that there's no chance they could produce a crash site.

[Big Z]

I like these recent ideas posted quite a bit; make the absolute last generation of UFO (I like the Destroyer, personally) so ungodly powerful and fast that Marauders can hardly catch up and Fusion Torpedoes hardly scuff the paint, and their appearance marks the point where you absolutely have to build a Fury or two or start losing relations by the truckload as these things zip around the map carpet bombing the planet or putting up constant Terror as they go.

Edited June 25, 2014 by Big Z

[MrPyro]

I did think about having them as non-crash site UFOs, but I wasn't sure what role they'd play.

I think what you've suggested could work. I think I like the idea of unstoppable terror missions (there's room for unstoppable base attacks as well, possibly).

You could do with an in game explanation for why they don't produce crash sites, though. Or, you need to make them utterly immune to anything other than the Fury so that there's no chance they could produce a crash site.

You could explain the lack of crash site in the fluff: something like

"From what we pieced together from the wreckage, this vehicle was clearly designed and built in space. It is so huge and ponderous (much like the gut of the chief engineer) that it is unable to maintain structural integrity under Earth's gravity. Only a huge anti-gravity array could be holding this together (we did see some fragmented components of what might have been this device).

Once this anti-gravity array fails, the UFO simply falls out of the sky. The energy release of its impact is comparable to that of the Tunguska meteorite, and results in the complete destruction of the UFO and any crew on board, in addition to any nearby structures or unfortunate livestock."

Edited June 26, 2014 by MrPyro
typo

[kabill]

Yeah, that's a good explanation.

[dpelectric]

That was what I was thinking, yes. Perhaps destroyers create terror sites and dreadnaughts = base attacks. In both cases the only thing that can shoot them down is a Fury, which would result in their utter destruction, so there won't be a possibility of a crash site. Either they succeed in their mission, or they're vaporized.

Marauders have an airspeed of 3850kmh, Furies 5500. Thus both enemy vessels should have a speed of somewhere around 4200-4800 to make them impossible for X-59s to catch. In terms of base defenses, a MAG battery has a dmg potential of 1200, so both UFOs could have HPs in the 10-12,000 range to make them impervious to this fire. Or even higher, if you wish. A singularity torpedo currently has 10,000 dmg, but this can be increased to ensure complete obliteration of the targets.

I really am pumped about this whole interlocking concept. I feel that it could revolutionize the late game, with its noted dropoff in geoscape challenge level and repetitious crash-site-only missions. Now, destroyers and dreadnaughts introduce a whole new level of threat, X-120s scream across the skies, and nothing feels safe. Certainly not your cities or your bases. And that's the whole thing that's missing from the late game. You have complete air supremacy, all the GC is the same, and you're just marking time until you can launch the final mission. These changes would ratchet the pressure way up, and make you feel like you should: that the s**t is really hitting the fan, and if you don't assault the mothership soon it's adios amigo.

Best of all this- the (re)addition of Furies, destroyers and dreadnaughts- can be done using pre-existing everything. There is no expensive artwork, new sprites, new submaps, new ground UFO layouts, coding changes, and all the other headaches that are usually associated with game-changing mods. GH has already done all the groundwork for us. The assets are right there, we just have to implement them. I know this is much easier said than done, but in terms of work involved for results achieved, this could be a large payoff for comparatively minimal effort.

Now, having said this, I personally have little to no modding experience. I think I could pull off the X-120 with a bit of advice, but re-introducing the two UFO types would likely be beyond me. Thus, I propose a collaborative effort, much like the XNT mod. We could start a small group with any interested parties, and I would guess that, with several people working together, this wouldn't be too difficult to pull off. I'm building a Fury right now in my vanilla game if that helps for testing purposes.

So, what do you think? Anybody interested? We could start a little group and go for it. I even have a tentative name to propose for the mod: "Furies and Dreadnaughts and Terror, Oh My!" (FDT for short)

Edit: Or maybe, on second thought, change it to "Furies and Terror and Dreadnaughts". That way the acronym could be FT'D. As in, you're FT'D, lol

Edited June 26, 2014 by dpelectric

[kabill]

Marauders have an airspeed of 3850kmh, Furies 5500. Thus both enemy vessels should have a speed of somewhere around 4200-4800 to make them impossible for X-59s to catch. In terms of base defenses, a MAG battery has a dmg potential of 1200, so both UFOs could have HPs in the 10-12,000 range to make them impervious to this fire. Or even higher, if you wish. A singularity torpedo currently has 10,000 dmg, but this can be increased to ensure complete obliteration of the targets.

Speed isn't good enough on its own. Even if the UFO is capable of outrunning a Marauder, if they're both moving towards one another the Marauders can still engage. Short of absurd speed differences, I don't think there's any way to make the UFOs utterly uncatchable.

Filling them with HPs, 360 degree super-cannons and point-defence weapons might be a better bet.

Now, having said this, I personally have little to no modding experience. I think I could pull off the X-120 with a bit of advice, but re-introducing the two UFO types would likely be beyond me. Thus, I propose a collaborative effort, much like the XNT mod. We could start a small group with any interested parties, and I would guess that, with several people working together, this wouldn't be too difficult to pull off. I'm building a Fury right now in my vanilla game if that helps for testing purposes.

Adding the UFOs should be pretty simple*. Off the top of my head, you'd need to:

1) Add entries in aircraft.xml

2) Make weapons in aircraftweapons.xml (or use existing ones on other UFOs)

3) Add datacore items for the new UFOs (if you want them, which I assume you do. Although would you get a datacore from them if they were blown up by a Fury? Might be irrelevant if so).

4) Add crew loadouts in assets/ufocontents. This could easily be a copy/paste job of existing types unless you wanted to alter the crews at all.

5) Add the UFOs to the relevant mission files

6) Add in String entries for the UFO types.

I think that's it.

*Then I wrote it out and it's less simple than I thought. I think I mean "simple to someone who knows what they're doing".

[MrPyro]

You'd need the data core to trigger the research that explains why it completely blows up if you manage to down it without a Fury.

7) add Xenopedia entries for the new UFOs

I agree with 360-degree fire-arc on these; I think although they are fast they could be sluggish to turn.

How much mod capability is there on the air combat AI? I'd actually like to see these things run rather than engage; they've got the speed advantage much of the time, and have missions to complete rather than engaging in pointless dogfights.