Kilrathi

Interesting to see Mervyn Peake on there, since I thought the author of that named passed away in 1968, before the game began! Maybe this is Mervyn Jr.?

If I have limited gaming time these days, should I pick this up or play Jagged Alliance 1.13 to get my tactical fix until Xenonauts comes out?

Count me as another who thought it was stupid. I went in with high hopes and came out really disappointed - as did most of the people who saw it in the theater with me, judging from the laughter at the final scene. ** SPOILERS ** (though this thread has already turned spoiler-y) ** SPOILERS ** ** SPOILERS ** Most of my points have been made above but, at root, my issue is that suspension of disbelief doesn't mean acceptance of people doing stupid things. As has been argued many times here in one thread or another, if you were dealing with aliens, first contact, etc., you would send the best of the best. If you were spending a trillion dollars, you would also train those people and organize them and have some semblance of a plan, not have _one_ guy on security with a gun and let the scientist tell him, "nah, stay inside the ship, we don't need security." Other examples are biologist guy with the snake thing, the captain being all "I'll personally lead this rescue team this time" and later "hey, the dead guy's suit is right outside our ship. Let's open the door" (seriously, in 2093, no one has watched the past 100 years of horror movies?) and, for that matter, mapping scientist guy with his fancy mapping drones... getting lost on his way out? Really, seriously, you don't have a way to jack into that map YOU JUST CREATED? Spent a trillion and fifty dollars and get that mapping software package next time. I could go on but, again... just don't be stupid. I'll believe that aliens exist, that the universe works the way you say it does, etc., etc. - that's the beauty of science fiction and why I love the genre. You can make up crazy stuff and explore ideas - and even put our heroes into some really bad situations - because you control the rules. Just don't insult me by making people do totally stupid stuff that most of us wouldn't do, let alone supposedly Earth's best and brighest. Make up a tough situation, show people doing everything they can against it and still coming up short. That resonantes a whole lot more than any of the silliness in this movie. Removing your helmets, really, seriously? Also, random Q: why did all the cave paintings paint them to this particular star system? The implication was that the planet ended up being either a military depot/factory and/or a crash site where the Engineers got stuck and killed. Why did they leave all these signs to come meet them there (back in the day, presumably before they planned to visit us with the black good)? Why wouldn't they have pointed the way to one of their civilized planets? Was the plan to just have us meet up on the barren moon planet in case we were trouble and then if we were worth it, they'd take us closer to the heart of their civilization? I guess I'd buy that - was that your take on it? -Kilrathi

Out of curiosity, how do you view the debug version of the game to see other custom portraits?

That's sort of my thought, too. I get their point on no public beta since it would reveal a lot of the game but December 2013 is a long way off, particularly since they're not offering a playable demo. I love the concept and would probably kick in for a t-shirt or something but as it is, I'm debating between backing a couple other projects or bumping my pledge to Dead State and so far, waiting 18 months just isn't worth tying up my $50-100, especially with not much in the way of rewards for those tiers.

For what it's worth, the standard varies from state to state in the U.S. I'm not real up on my criminal law these days but the general standard used to be that there was a "duty to retreat" - meaning that it's not self-defense if you can back away peacefully but don't and instead choose to fight. Certain jurisdictions have modified it to me that there's no duty to retreat from one's own home, while others (like Florida) take it one, ahem, crazy step further to say you can "stand your ground" and fight if challenged with no duty to retreat. Not sure if you Europeans have followed the Trayvon Martin case but the guy who shot him (Martin was an unarmed kid and they were both out in public) is likely to rely on the stand your ground defense and say that he felt threatened and so didn't have to retreat. In any case, I think the "Trespassers will be shot on sight" is generally a bit of an overstatement and not something that could happen legally but the exact standard varies. More to the point, the Kickstarter's at $124k - let's get the total moving upwards again! Put up some comments suggesting people bump their pledges, etc., etc. so that we can see those well-armed farmers in action!

Almost to $125k and the stretch goal! Let's make a real push here and see if we can generate enough buzz to hit $140k or $150k in the final push... time to use Twitter, mention it on forums, etc. Three more days to go, so let's see what we can do to make a great final push!

Just saw that Dead State, the zombie surivival RPG, hit Kickstarter today. It was up there with Xenonauts as the most interesting indie games I read about awhile back in PC Gamer, so I'm glad to see they're still alive and, err, kicking. I have to admit, the December 2013 release date puts me off a little bit since that seems like a long time for a game that's already been in development a long time and also the reward tiers seem a bit pricey - $15 for the game is good but then to even get a t-shirt (and some digital stuff), it's a jump to $100. Their "get your face in the game" tiers make Xenonauts' look like a steal, too - I think it's $750 or $800 to show up as an NPC or a zombie. That said, the game looks fun, managing a base and a team of characters trying to survive after the Zom-pocalypse. Take a look at the Kickstarter and let's discuss what you think... -Kilrathi

Chris, any thoughts on a $150k goal or something that you could announce to give people something to push for? The biggest "last week" bumps I've seen on Kickstarter have come because of (1) daily updates and (2) people having some goal that pushes them to up their pledges and make a lot of noise in an attempt to hit that last goal. With only a week left, I'd suggest doing a daily update - nothing lost by doing that and it reminds people who've already pledged that the clock is winding down and that they'd best update now if they ever want to, plus it builds the buzz. I've noticed a number of Kickstarters, even board game ones like Ogre and now Traveller (more an RPG than board game, I guess... and for all the folks who made me feel old for my board handle, I shudder to think how old a Traveller ref makes me look - I had the original black books), updated very frequently and it really seems to help the drive. Teasing aliens, letting people know how the schedule for the coming months looks, maybe posting an excerpt from the novella, etc. - people are ready and willing to eat up information and Kickstarter's sort of addictive, so that if they're engaged, people will contribute more in a last push from what I've seen. If anything is Kickstarter-exclusive, remind people that this is their last chance to get it and maybe you'll convince a few more people. As for stretch goals - I just noticed that the next two are $125k (which will be hit) and $140k (likely hit but then pushes tileset-specific NPCs to $165k). I think $150k is certainly within reach but the odds of hitting it will be better if there's a reason for people to push... otherwise they may well see that $140k gets met and $165k is unlikely, so something incremental in between may help get people to $150k, which in turn makes $165k more of a possibility. Just my $0.02. I think the campaign's gone great but it's one last week to raise some good cash for development, so why not pull out all the stops and see how it goes? Same goes for us in the community - time to make more posts, tell your friends, tweet about it, etc., and let's do what we can to help build the buzz for a nice final push that gets Chris and the team even more resources to make a great game. -Kilrathi

This is great stuff, Chris. Are you planning to mention it in the next KS upgrade? Seems like the kind of news people there (who aren't yet checking the forums) would be excited to hear since it's a lot of real steps forward.

How does it compare to Double Bear's Dead State (also a zombie-ish RPG)? Waiting for that one to hit Kickstarter since it sounds quite interesting if they can pull it off.

You missed out - it's sort of like missing out on Led Zeppelin (or at least the Who) though, to be fair, it's one of those franchises that for whatever reason was huge back in the day but hasn't really been revived lately. Sort of like Wizardry - I keep waiting to see someone pick up the IP and bring them both back to life. It's always interesting for me to still be under 40 and be making references to games that a whole new generation has never heard of! Wing Commander was one of the landmark games/franchises of the '90s (WC I and II won best fantasy or sci-fi game of the year in '90 and '91, respectively, and spawned a whole host of sequels). It was made by Lord British's computer Origin Systems, who also made the Ultima series, and included pretty big name Hollywood stars like Mark Hamill (that Star Wars guy), Christopher Walken, John Hurt, John Rhys-Davies and Clive Owen. There's a fan-made homage/remake in the works that's supposedly going to be played (or maybe already is) sometime soon at www.wcsaga.com More info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Commander_(franchise)

Also, to reiterate a key point: * The demo build that anyone can download for free is the same build that pre-orders get to play right now. Everyone is currently playing the same build and no new version will be released until Kickstarter ends. Once Kickstarter ends, all Kickstarter participants will get their Desura keys and will then be able to (a) play all new versions going forward and (b) get your forum badge. In other words: Slocket, you currently have access to the "latest development build" - it's the demo. Once the Kickstarter ends, you (and everyone who pre-ordered or participated in Kickstarter) will get access to any new versions released after the demo. -Kilrathi

What about another update on the Kickstarter site? Even if it doesn't say much, it means another email to 2000+ people and keeps the project in their mind, which may mean they mention it again. I always enjoy getting updates from the various project I've backed, even if it's just "hey, here's what we're working on for the next release" or maybe a previous of how suppression will work or what the job of the level designer is. Communication gets people thinking and that in turn gets them talking. Also, certain websites do news story updates when the Kickstarter updates, so sending out another update is another way to get covered again. All around, I think it's fantastic that the Kickstarter's at $90k with nearly three weeks to go - and still bringing in consistent new pledges! To be at nearly 2x goal with the drive half done is great - another bump or two would only help things even more. -Kilrathi

I wonder if there's any way to get it mentioned on a podcast like Gamers with Jobs or PCGamer (who seems to be steadfastly ignoring it). I know that someone affiliated with GWJ wrote an article but I haven't heard mention on podcast. I think just mentioning it wherever you can helps, too, since it creates more buzz. Tweet about it and think outside the box - see if you can get people who like aliens or other sorts of games to notice, too... if we're all trying to excite the same group of tactical turn-based gamers, that's really preaching to the converted. Figuring out people who wouldn't know about the project but who might be interested is key.

It's sci-fi but not KotoR (didn't play that one long enough to get to the creatuer you're talking about, tho). It's even older school: Wing Commander.

KZeem - yes, the "demo" is the same as the current Alpha build. Goldhawk released the most recent version as the demo, so those of us with pre-orders are playing the same version of the game as everyone playing the demo. I don't think they'll release another version of the game during the Kickstarter, though they're back working on development, so I expect that at some point after the Kickstarter ends, everyone who pledged in the Kickstarter will get their download keys and then we'll all be able to download the next version at the same time. In a nutshell - everyone is and will be playing the same version, whether they bought via the Kickstarter or the pre-order/Desura option.

I'm not sure there's a right or wrong way to do it... it's just the nature of the alpha and the demo build - not all the content is in there, and this is sort of akin to a game giving you the first act of 3 in the demo. More will be in the beta, I would assume, and even more in the final build.

Agreed - I think it looks great. Very excited to see it!

Out of curiosity, do you think that's more of the issue than the lack of higher-priced tiers at which to bid? I think the latter clearly plays a part in the slowing of the pledging, as does the fact that the goal has already been met. In all the Kickstarters I've seen, funding after the goal either depends on stretch goals or higher-priced tiers (often created after the start of the drive) to drive people to increase their pledges or get new pledgers involved. It's hard to get tons of new cash when most people are coming in at $20/30. But, back to my question - is your thought that just not announcing stretch goals would have led to more donations? From everything I've seen on Kickstarter, that's not the case. Also - rather than pointing out what you see as issues with the process, how about solutions? You seem to have ideas in mind - what would you do going forward?

I think it's an issue of "will" as opposed to "may". I don't think anyone other than your posts above has stated that these items will categorically not be included. However, looking at costs and priorities, it is likely that they will not unless the team raises sufficient resources to permit them to be added on. If people donate to help with those costs, they "will". If not, they "may" - but in the current scheme, they pretty clearly won't (unless there's a way discovered to get them in more cheaply or leftover resources, etc.). I'm not sure how that's a contrast. Sure, it'd be great to have them included and if there's a way to do so, they will be, but they weren't planned for inclusion for resource reasons and thus may not make it in.

Fair point. My sense is that the result of the team's assessment would be that they can't implement those things on their own, with the current level of funding - at which point, being polled gets us nothing. I definitely can't speak for Goldhawk, but my sense is that certain items might find their way in, to the extent they're feasible and make a better game. I haven't seen any indication that they'd certainly be left out if the goal isn't met, but the goal is a way of raising the necessary resources. For better or worse, it's been made clear that additional tile sets or mission types cost money, and without that money it's unlikely that they'll be in the game. That's just a reality, so I don't have any problem with what's essentially a statement that "we'd love to put these in the game, if we can afford to."

[edit: weird - that last couple sentences show up in the post when I quote it but not in the post as displayed - don't mean to misquote you, wiglafman, if that's not what you wrote] I guess it's a question of approach in some ways - you're saying you'd prefer less specifics, whereas Goldhawk has said specifically what additional features (that weren't originally intended) they could put in if they had additional resources. The other approach would be to do something more like what Wasteland 2 did - say "if you give us more money, we'll make a bigger, more immersive world." Maybe that's a better way to sell things, sure - who can argue with "bigger, more immersive world!"? That's great, we all like that... even if we, the backers, have no idea what that's going to mean. Goldhawk took the opposite tack and specifically said "here are things we'd like to add, if we, a small indie, studio, had the resources." They then took the transparency a step further by letting backers prioritize what they'd like to see added. That feels to me a lot like what the Shadowrun team did - they said "if you meet goal X, we'll add Physical Adepts. If you meet goal Y, we'll add a second city." I'll admit, I don't know the Shadowrun universe well enough to know if Physical Adepts are considered "essential" or not, but to my mind, a second city is akin to more tilesets and indoor missions - the game could play just fine without it but, hey, all the better if it's in - and people realized that it takes resources to add those features and no one (that I saw) jumped on Harebrained about it. What's the distinction here? Goldhawk did specifically state what they're looking to use the initial goal amount for and stated that that's how they'll use the funds. You do have valid points about the alpha needing work and I don't think anyone would disagree with you on that. But, again, this is the work of an indie studio working on a tight budget (think about it for a sec - what sort of videogame gets made on a $50k budget) and there are valid reasons that have been explained here for why the tech tree doesn't continue, why balance isn't in place, etc. - that doesn't mean those features don't exist or aren't already in progress. I guess my question is, at root, do you really wish Goldhawk had just said "We'd like more money and will use it to make the game better." with no further specifics? That's certainly less prone to attack and criticism but I personally appreciate the transparency and ability to have input into how the game plays out. I contributed to Wasteland 2, I hope it's a great game, but I frankly have no idea what "the bigger, more immersive world" means (other than apparently some place to put the hundreds of named artificacts and Kickstarter statues that they sold) and that, to me, requires a bigger leap of faith than hearing from a small producer what their issues are and how they can be addressed.

It's nearly at $75,000 - maybe a quick update on the Kickstarter site once that goal is achieved? I think people like that sort of communication and the feeling of excitement - the update could mention the cool stuff about this cool, what's up next and why that's cool too and ask people to help spread the word to make the game better for everyone. Maybe mention that you're considering some new and exciting reward tiers, too, so stay tuned... (just that sort of general sales-y stuff - keep people interested and excited and thinking of new ways to publicize the drive).

Re: PC Gamer - have you reached out to Josh Augustine or Evan Lahti? Josh is more of a MOBA/MMO guy but he's active and responsive to the community, so maybe he could mention the game and demo to someone on their staff (like Rob Zacny, their strategy guy)? How about a big Kickstarter banner on the Xenonauts.com and Goldhawk website? Right now, if you just surfed in, you'd miss the Kickstarter - may as well key people in to it...