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erutan

Tweak weapon balance

19 posts in this topic

Since none of these weapons are "real" but just archetypes... drop the ammo on shotgun to 8 and the ammo on the sniper rifle to 12 (or 9 if it's heavy). Make ammo a little more precious and give the pitiful AR an advantage with it's clip size... I haven't had to reload yet in game (aside from the rocket launcher).

Assault Rifle

I still think burst on AR sucks. ;)

It never/rarely hits more than one shot at range (realistically) so I'm better off using a sniper aimed shot for more damage.

It never/rarely hits more than twice at close range, so I'm better off using a shotgun and firing two shots for more damage. Even if it hits 3 times the only real bonus is there is no chance of reaction fire for 75 damage vs 35x2 on a shottie.

I suppose it still can do both roles, yet not as well, so it has some value, but it's really not growing on me aside from doing a lot of aim level 2 potshots.

Sniper

If you are going to make it a heavy weapon, it should do more damage (50 cal?) and probably take a tiny bit more TUs. It might be worthwhile to drag one of the previous sniper soviet models out, because I can't see it being a heavy weapon if it's just an AR with a scope and longer barrel.

Edited by erutan

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Contrary to popular (FPS) belief, 50.cal sniper rifles are not actually designed to shoot personnel, and are heavy as shit, not at all made to be run around in a small battlefield with. If they are included in the game, however unlikely, they should definitely be heavy, definitely cost a trillion AP's to fire and definitely kill anything it touches, if you're able to hit it when moving in the same turn as firing. (We have a 50. cal squad in my unit.

Materiell Ødeleggelses Rifle = Matériel Destruction Rifle. They work with spotter and shooter, and target practice are usually large metal containers, or burnt out tanks from 1100 yards with multi-purpose ammuntion.)

I don't really see a problem with the AR. My squad is usually 2 precision, 1 MG, 5 AR.

I can burst fire and then snap shot, or even normal shot with the AR. Anything they don't manage to kill, I finish with the precision rifles.

The best weapon isn't necessarily the one doing the most damage, and that from a design standpoint would be very poor.

But, if you like, give QM's mod a spin and up the damage, or accuracy or other fiddling that makes it more to your liking. If it makes you enjoy the game more, go for it. :)

Edited by IceVamp

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erutan, I've been playing with the following setup and I find it makes the weapons feel a little more balanced. See what you think (it's pretty much along the same lines as your suggestions anyway)

Assault Rifle - Increased the aimed shot to hit chance by about 10%, so that becomes your reliable option for finishing off a weakened alien. Reduced the AP required for burst fire to the same as aimed (25 for both) so you have a straight up choice between one reliable shot or 3 less accurate shots, but with a higher damage potential. Primarily for close ranged shots. Damage across the board is unchanged.

Shotgun - Reduce the ammo count to 8. Increase the reload time to 15 AP. So, this is now your go to weapon for highly damaging close range engagements, but you're punished if you rush in with half a clip and don't finish off the target with your initial assault.

Precision rifle - At present the Precision rifle feels to me just like a more powerful assault rifle (without the burst mode) in that you can still run your rifleman around and have time to fire at any discovered threats. So, I wanted it to feel more like a dedicated marksman's weapon which requires planning and careful aim to use, but is devastating when you line up a shot. He shouldn't be at the front of an advance, that's the Assault rifle and shotgunner's job. So I made the following changes to fit the Precision Rifle into a support role:

Reduce the ammo count to 5 rounds (to encourage some reloading and to make you pick your shots more carefully)

Increase the weapon weight and ammo weight a little

Removed the first two shot options. Have two shot options as follows: 1) 35 AP - 110% accuracy 2) 50AP - 130% accuracy

As I say, this is purely how I want to play the game and other people may disagree with everything I've just written! But, it sounded similar to what you were suggesting, so I recommend you open up the weapons.xml and weapons_gc.xml files and have a play around! (Save a backup if you do though, just in case!)

Oh, one more thing; I tell you what made the most difference for my enjoyment of the game - increasing sight ranges. I've set aliens up to 20 and my troops up to 18 and the difference ingame is very noticable. Shots flying in at your troops from well within the darkness makes for some exciting missions. :)

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I really wouldn't be worrying about the starting weapons, at least not until the game goes beta and we have access to all the other guns we're going to get.

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Point taken on .50 being a ridiculous game mechanic for use against people... but at least something that looks/acts more like a real sniper rifle. Going from 5.56mm to 7.62mm should provide a nice damage boost.

@jimbo I was thinking of reducing the cost of burst time as well. I like your changes to the shotgun and precision rifle too, I'll give something along them a shot next time I start up a new game!

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Cool man, hope you like it when you test it out. I'm still not 100% happy with the balance between the Assault rifle and the Precision rifle so if you come up with any further changes along these lines then let me know! :)

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The good point about balancing the starting weapons Buzzles is that the later tiers have versions that fill the same roles.

If you have refined those roles already then you know where to start on the new weapons as well.

Can I suggest putting a table of values together when you have a balance you are almost happy with?

Posting your weapon stats on here will help others, including Chris, when they come to tweak the values themselves.

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Lol. .50 caliber rifles are considered "Anti-Material" rifles for a reason (Originally designed to incapacitate TANKS).

I've also found that, though more expensive in terms of AP, the Precision Rifle has been way better than the AR (though I barely use burst). The only reason why I just haven't equipped all my guys (aside from the two guys with shotguns) with them is that they're already pretty weighty (possibly due to all those lovely 7.65x51mm NATO rounds that I keep picturing it fires).

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I like the idea of taking away the bottom two tiers on the precision rifle, but I was thinking - what if we keep snapshot as an extremely inaccurate "firing from the hip with a big bulky weapon" then nix normal and have the top two tiers very accurate.

e.g.

1 - 2x AP - =< 40% accuracy

2 - N/A

3- 35 AP - 110% accuracy

4 - 50AP - 130% accuracy

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My reasoning for taking away any sort of snap fire for the precision rifle was to either;

- make sure your sniper is never your point man. Keep him back, in a suitable firing position ready to make a shot at a moments notice or

- promote the use of weapon switching, so that he'd have a pistol as a backup weapon for moving to position, but a rifle in his pack for when he's ready to set up camp.

But, that's just me! That's the great thing about how easy the weapon stats are to mod, you can tweak it just how you like.

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I never bother carrying a pistol, but I like your reasoning.

A nearly useless snapshot seems realistic and somewhat useful in a pinch though. Maybe 20% or 30% accuracy, say less than half of what it is now (haven't had a chance to see what the base value actually is it'd be adjusting from).

So it'd be less effective than switching to a pistol, but still phsyically possible if you have to.

Dunno. I'm coming around to your way of doing it. :)

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Remember that the precision rifle may be a heavy weapon when that is implemented as well.

That is a 20 or 25% reduction in accuracy if you fire on the same turn you have moved.

If you still had that inaccurate snap shot it would probably have no chance to hit anyway!

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It's kind of supposed to have no chance to hit... I think it'd add a little flavour to go from a fast 10% to hit to the high AP 65% then 90% or whatever. Totally superfluous and I can see just knocking out snapshot, but I find keeping it super inaccurate a bit more realistic, amusing, and possibly useful. Feedback taken though, and it would probably be a little too confusing to keep that in the vanilla version of the game.

re: heavy weapons, just have a requirement to be fully accurate you need to be prone. ;) it'll take enough TUs to move then drop that you can't do much of it and still aim, but if you need to wiggle a tile or two on the ground you can still get a good shot off.

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re: heavy weapons, just have a requirement to be fully accurate you need to be prone. ;) it'll take enough TUs to move then drop that you can't do much of it and still aim, but if you need to wiggle a tile or two on the ground you can still get a good shot off.

I was talking about the current implementation of heavy weapons.

Or the currently planned one anyway as it doesn't appear to work at the moment.

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Yeah, I was just adding in some extra theorycrafting, since heavy weapons as is are theorycrafting. :) Accuracy debuff when not-prone seems simpler (aside from RPGs that should be fired crouched).

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You are making the uses of heavy weapons severely limited though surely?

There aren't all that many places in the maps where you will be able to see any great distance while laying on the floor.

The maps are being designed with provision of sufficient cover in mind.

Firing from behind cover would be practically impossible if you are prone.

That leaves you having to lay down in the open at the end of every turn in case you are in a position to fire a shot next turn.

A single medium sized wall anywhere between you and your target would then make your shot impossible.

Being prone in cover would hopefully remove you completely from the line of sight of any alien you are in cover from though.

I think this thread has wandered off from weapon balance a little.

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Fair enough. I was thinking of the classic "sniper laying in wait" scenario (also who fires a full machinegun standing up aside from hollywood movies?) and not the actual cluttered CQBish nature of the maps - I'll retract that suggestion.

That said while the +accuracy to crouch is a decent way of simulating this, certain weapons are meant to be fired standing up. Would it be possible / worthwhile to have 3 classes of weapons? Light, medium, and heavy.

Pistols / 1h weapons (shotguns?, perhaps a sawed off soviet variant in modland) would be light, there is very little to no bonus crouching but they have better accuracy at a low range standing than other weapons - the catch being they don't have any decent range after that. They are meant to be fired standing! This will play well with shields when they are released (or just keeping a grenade/medkit of some sort handy in the off hand).

Medium weapons would be the assault rifle, and perhaps the precision rifle etc - they get a bonus when crouching or prone but are also meant to be fired standing. All weapons in the game are currently medium. Most weapons would be medium.

Heavy weapons have an active penalty to be fired standing, but get a bonus crouching or prone - these would be machine guns, RPGs, heavier sniper rifles, scatter guns, etc. You can also keep the 'recoil' mechanic, though it's perhaps better described as 'dug in' or 'prepared'. Maybe if you have excessive superhuman strength or the über powerarmor this standing penalty will be negated.

New thread? Stupid idea?

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I think the light weapons, like the pistol, are reflected by giving them a bonus to reaction fire.

They are generally easier to line up on a target that pops out at you.

Accuracy drop off is already pretty low on those weapons as well.

Normal weapons have no bonus or penalty.

Heavy weapons have an accuracy penalty if you have moved.

All of them are more accurate if you crouch.

Bracing your machine gun or precision rifle on a wall or other low object would probably be just as good as going prone.

Maybe reduce or remove any accuracy penalty if you are in cover.

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Ah, I didn't know they had a bonus to reaction fire - but yeah, handling or w/e (I really need to dig in the internals more). That works well as a 'light' perk and I agree current mechanics cover the rest, though a heavier weapon will have more of a relative boost to accuracy as it requires more support than a lighter weapon - but that's not worth bothering with.

I like the idea as cover counting as a crouch/prone bonus.

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