Who else thinks medals should do more?

[Gauddlike]

So what role do you see for medals?

Fluff images that give no benefit would be the only thing that fits with that view.

I personally find experienced soldiers who somehow double their accuracy, make themselves 50% faster, and 40% stronger just by doing the same job they have been doing for years to be gamey but that progression method seems to be fine for others

[crusherven]

Fluff. Interesting fluff if possible, but fluff.

[legit1337]

Performing noteworthy acts in combat do not make you a more experienced and dangerous combatant?

No it doesn't.

lol...

If I'm a rookie on my first mission and manage to gun down 5 aliens by myself in a tense firefight, that does not warrant an improvement in my combat skills outside the norm? I think it does, because it is has demonstrated combat ability outside the norm.

There is a possibility for a cool system here, and +1 bravery is just a wasted opportunity IMO. I think we should take the medal system beyond "fluff".

What legit is suggesting is that you look at the act that gave the medal and see the stat gain as a consequence of that action and the medal as a visual indicator of what they have gained.

Exactly.

Edited May 1, 2014 by legit1337

[crusherven]

lol...

If I'm a rookie on my first mission and manage to gun down 5 aliens by myself in a tense firefight, that does not warrant an improvement in my combat skills outside the norm? I think it does, because it is has demonstrated combat ability outside the norm.

Not really. Luck plays a very large part in this, assuming you (or the soldier) were not in fact significantly more skilled.

[StK]

How would surviving that situation make you aim any better or react any faster?...

Learning doesn't work that way.

Aim gets better by training, not by random acts of "heroism" same goes for every other stat.

Also there is no need for progression outside the system thats in place... it would only make more balancing necessary.

I like the system thats in place in Xenonauts and always found the system that the new X-COM uses completely blown out of proportion, counter immersive and with all the other "little improvements" your soldiers get in the expansion pack simply game breaking.

[legit1337]

Not really. Luck plays a very large part in this, assuming you (or the soldier) were not in fact significantly more skilled.

So what if it is luck? He still managed to pull it off. Practically everyone who has received a medal of honor IRL won it through sheer balls and amazing luck.

How would surviving that situation make you aim any better or react any faster?...

Learning doesn't work that way.

Aim gets better by training, not by random acts of "heroism" same goes for every other stat.

Also there is no need for progression outside the system thats in place... it would only make more balancing necessary.

I like the system thats in place in Xenonauts and always found the system that the new X-COM uses completely blown out of proportion, counter immersive and with all the other "little improvements" your soldiers get in the expansion pack simply game breaking.

I completely and fundamentally disagree with you. I actually thought the medals in X-COM:EU were pretty cool, and would like to see a similar xenonaut medals system.

Edited May 1, 2014 by legit1337

[legit1337]

(Double Post)

[kabill]

How would surviving that situation make you aim any better or react any faster?...

Learning doesn't work that way.

Aim gets better by training, not by random acts of "heroism" same goes for every other stat.

In fairness, the extant system in Xenonauts isn't really any different.

[StK]

@Kabill Well, it got the basics right, it only works way to fast when compared to IRL. In the game your ppl progress by using that stat. They get stronger by carrying a lot of stuff, they get more TUs (Endurance?) by running around, etc. , they get better at aiming by shooting at stuff...

Which is essentially how you would train those things... granted you wouldnt train them in combat situations.. but well the player wants some kind of progression in his game and this (imho) is the best way to implement that

@legit: Well we disagree in this point. And I'm glad the developers (so far) don't see it your way.

This game is refreshingly free of obviously "gamey-mechanics" and I hope it stays this way.

Edited May 1, 2014 by StK

[kabill]

@Kabill Well, it got the basics right, it only works way to fast when compared to IRL. In the game your ppl progress by using that stat. They get stronger by carrying a lot of stuff, they get more TUs (Endurance?) by running around, etc. , they get better at aiming by shooting at stuff...

Which is essentially how you would train those things... granted you wouldnt train them in combat situations.. but well the player wants some kind of progression in his game and this (imho) is the best way to implement that

Perhaps. Even in the best cases, "running around during a combat mission" isn't especially close to "speed training", nor is "shooting a few shots at aliens" close to "extensive practice at a shooting range". In the worst case, it doesn't really work at all: "carrying lots of stuff" is not the same as "strength training"; while "being terrified by the fact that all your friends died" is certainly not the same as "improving confidence"!

More or less, then, they're all abstractions and fudges. So I'm not sure any of them are more realistic or less silly than using medals as a stat-boosting system (which in the final analysis is just being proposed as a game-mechanic for boosting stats; it doesn't actually matter that they're medals or whatever else). To be clear, I've no particular interest in seeing the existing system changed; I don't particularly like it, but it works well enough*. I'm just not convinced that appeal to reality is a very valid here.

*Everyone would hate my solution, 'cause I'd probably just get rid of progression entirely!

[StK]

@kabill I agree with most things you said (with the exception of the strength training thing.. if I give you a backpack fill it up with heavy stuff and let you run around a few kilometers you will get stronger as long as you do it often enough).

As I said its as close as I think this game can get while still giving the the player that sense of progression. (with the bravery exception .. that ones completely bollocks)

I also think I would kinda like your solution if my troops were kinda viable from the start and if a game implements proper training facilities to implement little improvements (just for the sake of having it )

[Gauddlike]

Well when the psi changes are made they could possibly have a resist mechanism based on morale.

At that point bravery progression could be tied to resisting a psi attack.

Of course the down side is that if you can train bravery in a meaningful way then the 1 point from a medal becomes even less useful.

[kabill]

@kabill I agree with most things you said (with the exception of the strength training thing.. if I give you a backpack fill it up with heavy stuff and let you run around a few kilometers you will get stronger as long as you do it often enough).

Yes, it will make you stronger, but it's not a close approximation of what one would normally do to build strength I don't think. (Although I guess I'm thinking of an athletic rather than a military context. I'll concede the point.)

[legit1337]

@legit: Well we disagree in this point. And I'm glad the developers (so far) don't see it your way.

This game is refreshingly free of obviously "gamey-mechanics" and I hope it stays this way.

Apart from the fact that a machinegun only holds 30 bullets, and that planes are indestructable, and that aliens only seem to attack once a week on friday nights... need I go on?

I fail to see how making medals award small stat boosts can break the "realism" of this game any further. It would be a good way of translating soldier "achievements" into combat power. Saying that "bits of metal don't make you shoot better" is a terrible argument, the proposed system is an abstraction that helps translate real life concepts into gameplay mechanics (something I have no problem with).

Using an example that someone put forward earlier. A marksman medal does not make you shoot better, but it is only awarded to good marksmen. Therefore it is safe to assume that anyone with a marksman medal will be a good shot. The stats boosts are only there to make it true in-game.

Edited May 2, 2014 by legit1337

[StK]

refreshingly free in this context means: As long as gameplay, balancing or engine don't dictate otherwise.

Look, it seems we have fundamentally different views when it comes to "achievements". I don't like them and I hate that steam popularized them.

If a Xenonaut makes an incredible shot over ~3 screens with his rifle, I'm happy that he did so and the fact it happend is rewarding enough for me. I don't want nor do I need a pat on my back from the game engine that tells me: "That was a great shot, here have 5 more accuracy". That's what i meant when I said gamey-mechanics.

That what it boils down to in my opinion.

[legit1337]

refreshingly free in this context means: As long as gameplay, balancing or engine don't dictate otherwise.

Look, it seems we have fundamentally different views when it comes to "achievements". I don't like them and I hate that steam popularized them.

If a Xenonaut makes an incredible shot over ~3 screens with his rifle, I'm happy that he did so and the fact it happend is rewarding enough for me. I don't want nor do I need a pat on my back from the game engine that tells me: "That was a great shot, here have 5 more accuracy". That's what i meant when I said gamey-mechanics.

That what it boils down to in my opinion.

Fair enough, I did not understand your objections before, but now I do. I however, do like when games give you a pat on the back for doing something above and beyond.

At least you argue by explaining your opinion in a logical manner. Too many people on this forum dismiss everything they disagree with out of hand without explaining why (just look at this thread, so many "lol nope" responses), or by giving arguments with nonsense reasoning. I tend to get pissy when that happens.

Edited May 2, 2014 by legit1337

[franconbean]

I guess it wouldn't make a lot of flavour sense, but it would be nice if some medals did something other than increase bravery. I think the +1 increase is still fine: once you get a highly decorated soldier, those small incremental bonuses really stack up