Too Many UFO's?

[Monifix]

It is a fair mechanic if the game is based around you not having to down all UFOs in order to win the game. Which, as you've stated above in your post, seems to be possible (and would accord with my experience as well).

The key point is that the UFOs in the game are broadly balanced against the (expected) tech level of the player. You never end up with a situation like you described from TFTD: you'll never get a top-tier UFO early in the game if you can't handle it. In other words, its expected that the player (with suitable skill and research/resource management) should be able to win any single individual air engagement at any given point in the game. As such, if the UFOs came in a constant stream rather than in waves, you'd be able to defeat every single one that you encounter.

Yeah I get what you're saying. If that is true with the way the game is currently designed and the UFOs were more spread out, it would be more likely that you could take them all out. I guess I'd just prefer if it wasn't the case that you could reliably take down the UFOs without losing some craft, and indeed as I said I personally often do lose aircraft or get them damaged to the point where I don't dare send them out. But if you can do it then I can accept that i might just not be very good at air combat.

With the wave mechanism, you're never in a situation where you cannot possibly win an encounter, but you're seldom in a situation that you can win every single encounter that's thrown at you because you probably don't have the resources to deal with it.

Yeah, I guess I just think it's a worse solution to the problem of being able to shoot down everything to clump the UFOs up so that you can't handle the volume. I'd much rather that they came in a steady stream and were tough enough to where some would only be able to be shot down if you were very good and you'd still probably lose a craft trying.

I'd argue that's actually much more fair than the situation you describe in TFTD. In your example, there is literally nothing you could do to defeat that battleship. In Xenonauts, unless you screw up in some way (don't invest in air combat; screw up the minigame; whatever) any air combat can be won. You're rewarded for better play in the minigame by being able to get fighters back out quicker (i.e. less reload/repair time). And, while it's not necessary to do this to win the game, you can throw all your resources at air combat (i.e. more planes) in order to minimise the chance that you can't intercept all UFOs in a given wave. Basically, the entire air game, short of random UFO spawn locations, is within the player's hands in terms of how it's dealt with and how it plays out. I'd say that's more than fair.

Yeah, I guess fairness is subjective and not really a good word for me to use. To me it's fair when I fail in the situation I described despite there not being a solution where I could have taken down that UFO. It's like walking into a high level area in a RPG when you are a level 2 bard and getting your ass handed to you because you had no business being there in the first place. It's a bad choice that I made, and I should simply have stayed away. It doesn't seem fair to me when the game has a mechanic where it consistently overburdens me. But then again that is subjective, and I see how it's similar to throwing an enemy at me that I can't deal with. In both cases failure is being forced on me. I just prefer the geoscape to be constantly active, but certainly not to a point where I'd get interrupted every 12 hours as Chris mentioned, but that might have been an exaggeration as well. Certainly you could have UFO's be more consistently active across the globe without you getting interrupted all the time. Perhaps the aliens should trickle in during the early game, and then start tending more towards big waves as you approach the late game and have extensive radar coverage.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Monifix

[silencer]

Umm, okay... Well in that case, if one interceptor can reliably take down everything, isn't that then the problem? It's not my experience that this is true though, but then again I admit the fault may lie with me.

Edit: Honestly I can't fathom how this could be true. Some UFO's can't even be shot down with the ammo capacity that one interceptor has. And fighting a big UFO with fighter escorts is a real challenge as far as not taking any damage even when you have 3 aircraft, that just seems insanely skilled if you could do that reliably. I don't think your average player could do that, it's not how it goes down for me, and in the let's play series I'm following on youtube the youtubers often struggle a lot in air combat as well.

I consider myself an average player. Just for you I've made a small vid how to (or how I) intercept capital ships with escorts. Currently it's december so month 3 and I am facing corvettes. Tech up to date with gatling and alienium - pretty basic stuff for month 3. When landing ships arrive 1 more Foxtrot will be necessary to finish the job or simply 2 squadrons of condors then 2 squadrons of Foxtrots. Normally I have 2 by 2 ships but I thinking about adding 1 more light fighter.

[video=youtube;01Di6p9bfo4]

P.S

Chris why is the AI so desperate to prioritize Fighter 1 most of the times? For example the Corvette focuses on Condor 1 and the 2 fighters fire 2 salvos at him too. Except the moment when alien fighters dash forward to foxtrot.

Edited April 7, 2014 by silencer

[kabill]

Perhaps the aliens should trickle in during the early game, and then start tending more towards big waves as you approach the late game and have extensive radar coverage.

For what it's worth, I think I would like this too. As I've argued, I think the UFO waves are the best solution for how other parts of the game have been constructed, but I don't think that's the only way things could work. A mod I've been working on is supposed to work kind of like you describe, but there's quite different aircraft balance to match. (In short, it tries to avoid instant-win air combats using long-range weapons, such that all air combats are potentially dangerous. Don't know how well it will work, though, and it does away with much of hardpoint diversity that GH have been keen about.)

[Dranak]

Okay, fair enough. I couldn't understand how that was possible

But yeah, I'd still like to ask if you have actually tried it with the UFOs more spread out, and are talking from experience? Because to me it seems that if the numbers are still the same, the UFO's would still manage to inflict the same amount of damage to my interceptors to where there would be periods where I would have to let UFOs go.

Currently the reload/rearm times are relevant, because they reduce the number of sorties you can perform per aircraft per wave. If they trickled in with fewer UFOs at a time, this would make it much easier to intercept all UFOs with a smaller number of planes.

Of course, the net result of the current system is just that you build slightly more planes and still kill everything if you are so inclined.

[Monifix]

For what it's worth, I think I would like this too. As I've argued, I think the UFO waves are the best solution for how other parts of the game have been constructed, but I don't think that's the only way things could work. A mod I've been working on is supposed to work kind of like you describe, but there's quite different aircraft balance to match. (In short, it tries to avoid instant-win air combats using long-range weapons, such that all air combats are potentially dangerous. Don't know how well it will work, though, and it does away with much of hardpoint diversity that GH have been keen about.)

Sounds interesting!

[Monifix]

Currently the reload/rearm times are relevant, because they reduce the number of sorties you can perform per aircraft per wave. If they trickled in with fewer UFOs at a time, this would make it much easier to intercept all UFOs with a smaller number of planes.

Of course, the net result of the current system is just that you build slightly more planes and still kill everything if you are so inclined.

Yeah I guess it would be more easy in general, but I don't think it would be completely trivial to take down every single UFO, you'd still get situations where you just fought a big UFO and got your aircraft damaged and then right after another UFO appears.

I guess since nobody has said they mind the empty feeling for long periods on the geoscape besides me that it isn't really an issue then.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Monifix

[Dranak]

Yeah I guess it would be more easy in general, but I don't think it would be completely trivial to take down every single UFO, you'd still get situations where you just fought a big UFO and got your aircraft damaged and then right after another UFO appears.

I guess since nobody has said they mind the empty feeling for long periods on the geoscape besides me that it isn't really an issue then.

I'm not really a fan of it either, it's just been pretty low on my list of issues.

[Chaos Marine]

It's not, I think, that there are too many UFOs, it's that you could go for a few days with nothing and then have five or six UFOs/fighter swarms and not have enough air power to stop them. A more... spread out invasion would relieve a lot of unnecessary stress.

[victorix58]

I like the periods of break with no UFOs. Its necessary to heal/build/research and reorganize.

[TehRoach]

Hi guys

Dam am I loving this game!

I believe that the problem doesn't lie with the amount of UFO's or the fueling times, but more on where you are able to refuel your aircraft.

Currently I always build my first base HQ in Egypt (thanks for the hints guys, this one is definitely a winner),

at the beginning of the second month I will build 2 new bases, one in Mexico/Cuba area (called Merica) and one in Thailand/Philippines area (called Stralia).

Then as money allows I will build 2 more bases, one in USSR (called Commys) roughly just above where the Radar intersects from HQ and Stralia, and one in Central Sothern Canada (which I call USA)

I will then attempt to build my last bases in Africa, South America and Alaska but only if finances are really good.

I will always have at least 6 hangers at each base, although HQ, Merica and Stralia will often sport 10-12 hangers (12 if workshop is present).

I then run my economy at somewhere between $0 to -$200,000 net income,

with 3-4 dropships and the rest of the fleet roughly split 45%/55%, Fighters/Bombers

Priority research Alenium Explosives, Laser Cannons/Upgraded Bases, Plasma Explosives

Alenium Explosives - allows for easy early game interception as you will only need 1 Foxtrot to kill the Scout (drop Foxtrot speed to minimum and press space bar) and with a little practice 1 Condor for a light Scout. (although you may still consider 2 Condors, if the light Scout is a long way from your base as you will not want to be running low on fuel with only 1)

Having many spare hangers at each base allows you to transfer Fighters/Bombers between bases as needed, having the excess hangers may mean that you total Air-force may be 2 or 3 Aircraft lighter, but will ensure that most of your fleet will be in the places that they are needed within a manageable time after UFO contact

I also rename all my aircraft to include base name, aircraft type, number; so they are easier to sort out after big muddle ups.

PS I know I may be a bit late for suggesting content but I think the already excellent game of Xenonauts would only get better and more legendary!

If the developers could make a couple of additions to the Geo-scape and Air Combat:

1) The ability to change troop positions in drop ships while the drop ship is refueling

2) I know the engine doesn't support 3D so a Global shaped Geo-scape is out of the question, but if you could put warp points on the north and south sides of the map, to simulate sending your Aircraft over the poles.

ie if an aircraft entered the top of the map on the left side of the screen it would be move to the right side of the screen at about the same distance from the middle of the screen;

this wouldn't exactly replicate a sphere but more of a cylinder with the ends flattened,

however this would bring more considerations into base placement as currently your main bases need to be placed roughly along the equator or north/south center of land masses, as you would be able to attack things in the USSR and vice versa with aircraft from North America, without having to fly over Alaska or Europe (this is the cold war, but currently this threat/option is completely lost)

3) The ability to refuel aircraft in-flight or at cities.

[TehRoach]

After reading the last 3 pages of this thread, cause I am a noob and didn't see the 2,3,4 tabs until after posting my previous comment.

I would like to add, that I enjoy the current wave system as they always seem to be over whelming at first, but the intensity adds to the games fun for me;

Then when you get them all after a few not so speedy pit stops for your aircraft, you get a bit of a kick out of it

and the sometimes, when dam that bastard got away is still exciting.

I like the big wave system, but if there could also be a trickle system as well, just to keep you on your toes