[V19 STABLE HOTFIX 02/09/2013 ] Can't shoot through smoke while crouching.

[GlyphGryph]

My kneeling LMG and snipers have a frequent issue where there is an unobstructed path to the enemy, barring smoke, and I'm not allowed to select the enemy as a target (it is just a red 'x'). If I have the shooter stand instead of kneeling, this effect goes away and I can fire as desired.

[StellarRat]

My kneeling LMG and snipers have a frequent issue where there is an unobstructed path to the enemy, barring smoke, and I'm not allowed to select the enemy as a target (it is just a red 'x'). If I have the shooter stand instead of kneeling, this effect goes away and I can fire as desired.

It sounds like there is terrain that is blocking your shot. The height of the shooter does make a difference in Xenonauts.

[GlyphGryph]

In that case, it only blocks the shot when the smoke is up - before the smoke is thrown, I'm able to make the shot without problems (the smoke is thrown specifically to negate enemy reaction fire).

So I'd still call it a bug - I can still see the enemy (with other units), my units are all in the same places, the only difference is the presence of the smoke, and the smoke really shouldn't be making a difference there.

[StellarRat]

Yeah, that's a bug. I think smoke is supposed to block all targetting not just kneeling or standing. Although, I do think you can still just fire at the tile if you have an idea where the enemy is.

Edited October 1, 2013 by StellarRat

[GlyphGryph]

The whole problem is that you can't. You literally can not fire at tiles sometimes if you are kneeling and there is smoke in the way, it is completely impossible. The smoke isn't blocking targeting, it is blocking firing at all. Even walls don't do that!

[Max_Caine]

I concur with GlyphGryph. A soldier while kneeling can't shoot through smoke. A standing soldier can. I suspect from the dev's PoV, the standing soldier being able to shoot is the bug, rather than the kneeling soldier.

EDIT: That's because the stanidng soldier can shoot through the smoke as if it weren't there. While the targeting reticule may tell you 0% chance to hit, it doesn't count the smoke as a negative modifier.

[victorix58]

...I suspect from the dev's PoV, the standing soldier being able to shoot is the bug, rather than the kneeling soldier...

Why, what makes you think the ability to shoot through smoke would be unintentional? I don't follow.

[GlyphGryph]

You also can't throw grenades through smoke while kneeling in the short bit of testing I did earlier - again, standing resolves the issue.

[Max_Caine]

victorix58, I suspect the intention of smoke is to block LoS, rather than provide a handy wall of invisibilty for troops to shoot through and not get shot back at. Hence kneeling being unable to shoot through smoke, end of story. But that's just my suspicion.

[GlyphGryph]

Then smoke goes from a great way to control the battlefield to utterly useless, making battle significantly more boring as one of the few meaningful tactical options we have falls by the wayside.

Especially since walls don't stop firing or grenade throwing. Do you really think it's intended that smoke be more of an absolute barrier than walls? That doesn't make much sense.

[Max_Caine]

This isn't the place to discuss it, and I really don't have any place second guessing the intentions of the developers, but alright then, I'm game. I'll play devils' advocate.

So you throw your smoke grenade. What happens next turn when sight is reset? You can't see squat diddly through it. To actually see a target to shoot at, you have to either walk through the smoke if thrown in a cramped environment, walk around the smoke if thrown in an open environment por have another spotter available to see what's going on. A'right, so in two of three cases, the player couldn't shoot through the smoke in any case because he can't see through it, so being unable to shoot through it and being unable to see through it are one and the same thing.

But wait! The third option! What about someone else spotting? And the fourth option I just thought about while re-writing this paragraph? Firing blind through the smoke! Okay then. In the third instance, I now have a mayjickal wall of invisiblity I can summon at any time. Provided I stand in this wall of invisibility, the aliens are going to have a terrible time targetting me because they can't see me, but I will have a lovely time shooting them because I can see them. AoE weapons in the aliens possesion are: a) grenades which are incredibly short ranged, or b) plasma cannons which are short in supply. The "great way to control the battlefield" becomes the only way. Tactics? Meh. Flanking? Meh. Spot enemies, throw grenade, stand in cloud, shoot cover, shoot bad guys. Rince, repeat, rince, repeat. What's that? Aliens want to come running at me? Please! Makes it easier for me to gun them down. This is somethng that I do already, it somethng that you see poeple taking about - how "smoke saved their life", etc. etc.

In the fourth instance, of what value is blindly shooting? Given that aliens can and do move around smoke in their turn, the player no longer know where the alien is. If I were to fire a shot at the tile where the alien was, there is a more than reasonable chance that I have wasted the speculative shot. But! That can be compensated, by throwing grenades, firing rockets or spraying and praying. So I change my dynamic when shooting through smoke by liberally applying AoE weapons. Isn't that great! Moar rokkits plz.

Ultimately, this excellent way of controlling the battlefield all boils down to exploits in the way the game works, that being the games is an IGOUGO system and sight is permanent in the player's turn. Once a smoke grenade is thrown if sight were adjusted in real-time it would be as every bit as useless as you complain, because you could not spot the aliens once the smoke was in the way. The benefit that we get is sight is not re-adjusted to take into account smoke in the turn it is thrown and enemy units must stand perfectly still and helpless to speculative shots, which is something you couldn't take advantage of in a freeze-time system like Frozen Synapse/AfterX or an RTS. This is an exploit of the sight system combined with an exploit of how "pure" IGOUGO turn-based systems work. Chris has spoken previously about making sight real time and I wish the GC coder would make that a reality sooner rather than later.

EDIT: PLease note I actually would prefer that I could shoot through smoke but have zero perecent chance of hitting with any kind weapon or equipment. I would like the kind of EU1994 "hilarity" that ensues when trying to shoot or throw an object with zero percent chance of hitting anywhere near the target.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Max_Caine

[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, this isn't the place for it, and it doesn't matter - it's broken, as is, undeniable, and is thus a bug. If you think you shouldn't be able to shoot through smoke at all ever take the discussion to suggestions.

[StellarRat]

OK, this isn't the place, Caine...BUT since you started this...you should be able to fire into the smoke. If your close enough or have an area effect weapon, that is a completely normal and realistic tactic. When troops IRL fire at stuff or toss a grenade into a building 9 times out of 10 they don't have specific target. They just know roughly where the fire is coming from. I would have no problem with the aliens doing the same to the Xenonauts if the AI could be programmed to do that.

[kabill]

For what it's worth, this issue has been around for ages - certainly before the smoke grenade buff that came around the end of the v19 experimentals. So it's unlikely that kneeling soldiers not being able to shoot through smoke at all is intentional, since smoke was much less powerful before the buff.