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MrAlex

Air battles reworking

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In this topic, I propose to share ideas for improving air combat and other features of fighters. 

I do not know how difficult it is to implement the following ideas, but if it is possible, it will give you great opportunities to upgrade fighters.
I suggest adding a weight parameter for fighters. It will affect maximum speed, turning speed, and the ability to use evasion.
Depending on the current weight, you can make several levels of loading:
- Low: Maximum flight speed, maximum turning speed, the fast use of evasion.
- Medium: Reduced maximum speed, turning speed, slow evasion
- High: Significantly reduced maximum speed, turning speed, inability to use evasion.
This will give you opportunities for additional upgrade fighters.
For example, improved engines: Increase the maximum available weight of the fighter.

I also propose to change the restrictions on the types of fighter ammunition. So players can load what they need in each slot: Torpedoes, missiles, cannons .

Depending on the type of fighter, you can change the number of available Weapon slots.
I suggest the following changes:
Angel - 2 slots
Phantom - 3 Slots
Fury - 4 slots
Each type of weapon will have a weight proportional to its damage: For example, torpedoes are 2 times heavier than missiles. This will control their number.
The amount of ammunition will be limited by the weight of the fighter. Therefore, the player will be able to choose what he needs: armor plates or additional missiles / torpedoes / ammunition for the cannon.

This will greatly increase the tactical capabilities of the player. For example, player will be able to use a protected fighter to distract the enemy while light unprotected fighters attack.

Edited by MrAlex

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The firing frequency of missiles/torpedos in each shot will be limited by the lock time.

For example: missiles 1 sec, torpedoes 1.5 sec. After shot, each weapon slot will be re-aimed.

Increasing the ammunition of fighters will also need to increase the health of alien ships. In this way, each missile will inflict a lower percentage of damage. Air battles will be more interesting, because UFOs will not be destroyed by the first shot.

Edited by MrAlex

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Looking for more information about real fighters, I came to some conclusions:
1) Torpedoes are used to attack water ships, you need to change their name to Heavy Missiles
2) The hull of the fighter is limited, so you can simplify the development of the following restrictions: Each slot can hold a maximum of 1 cannon / 2 heavy missiles / 4 light missiles.
3) To maintain balance with increased ammunition should increase the health of alien ships by 2 times.

Thus I offer for each slot of the weapon:
- minimum cannon ammunition 50, maximum 200 (each increase by 50)
- Minimum ammunition for light missiles 1, maximum 4
- Minimum ammunition for heavy missiles 1, maximum 2

The weight of real missiles ranges from 200 to 1,200 kilograms, so for convenience, the weight of all weapons can be calculated in proportion to its damage.

Edited by MrAlex

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The Idea is good MrAlex. You brought it to the Point. We had such a similar System in Test-Beginning (the first Versions). There were if I remember correclty following:

1. Guns (like we have as Standard [Ammunition is 100 for all Guns])

2. light Missles (like we have as Standard [Ammunition is 1 Missle])

3. Torpedos / Heavy Missles (like we have as Standard [Ammunition is 1 Torpedo])

4. Armor (like we have as Standard [Armor is extra HP])

5. Tanks for greater range and 1 or 2 other Special Things for Testing (Prototypetesting)

 

Therefore I find your Idea-Implementation very good. There should be following:

1. Guns (like we have as Standard [Ammunition we can discuss])

2. light Missles (like we have as Standard [there I agree fully with your Ammo-Idea 2 are Standard, 4 are Maximum])

3. Torpedos / Heavy Missles (like we have as Standard [there I agree fully with your Ammo-Idea 1 is Standard, 2 are Maximum])

4. Armor (like we have as Standard [there a Change in Armor like it done for Infantry / Vehicles is a must have; light Armor 20 to 40 Protection with the ability to make Eveason and Heavy Armor with 80 to 100 Protection without Evasion])

6. The unuesed Potential, which you show very good. There are 3 following things I would implement to use the Potential:

a) Engine Upgrades, which you have Mentioned. That makes him faster, better Maneuverable, give him evtl. more Range

b) Airframe Upgrades for the Angels which gives through the new Alien-Alloys a little bit more HP [HP can be discussed] and make it a little bit lightwighter.

c) Airframe Refit for all Fighters to refit them to a new Model.

I think this 3 Ideas were a thought from the Devs too, if I read that correctly. There are maximum 5 Slots for the Fighters. The already 3 for Guns, Rocket / Torpedo and Armor. An 4th one are for Engine-Uprades / Engine Refits and a 5th one for an other System (like Fuel-Tanks, Radar- / Electronic-Updates or such). Then the Potential for the Fighters are fully. Such nice Extras were already implemented and are easy to bring back.

An complicated System like you announce is possible too. But that would increase the Programming time for much longer, which bring in much more Bug- / Failure-Potential as an disadvantage. Much more it increases the Beta-Tests for about 6 or 8 more Month. About 60 % of the Public wanna have an Early Access as soon as possible (they don´t wanna make a testing which is on Steam / GoG offerd).

But that the Devs have to decide, we can only make suggestions and show the advantages / disadvantages.

Edited by Alienkiller

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2 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

There are maximum 5 Slots for the Fighters. The already 3 for Guns, Rocket / Torpedo and Armor. An 4th one are for Engine-Uprades / Engine Refits and a 5th one for an other System (like Fuel-Tanks, Radar- / Electronic-Updates or such).

First of all, I want to balance the phantom. It is now too effective against UFO fighters, but the lack of ability to carry missiles and heavy missiles makes it vulnerable to other long-range UFOs. It should be an equal fighter of medium rank between an angel and a fury. We can simply make fixed 3 weapon slots for all fighters with the ability to install cannons / missiles and heavy missiles in any of them.
In addition, due to the impossibility of using evasion, heavy plates are not effective. The idea is to make available the use of heavy plates by a fighter for dog fighting using canons with the possibility of using evasion if the fighter does not have heavy missiles.

Also, in my opinion, the aircraft platings should give additional HP (def) in% of the base value. Now there is a fixed value (150) which for Angel gives 75% HP, and for fury less than 10%.

Edited by MrAlex

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For simplicity, we can implement the idea as follows:
1) If the fighter is equipped with a heavy plating and at least one slot with heavy missiles - there is no evasion.
In other cases (heavy missiles without heavy plating  / heavy plating without heavy missiles) evasion is available. It will not be difficult to add such a condition.

2) Each heavy missile slot has 2 missiles,
3) Each missile slot has 4 missiles,
4) Cannons have 200 rounds.
5) Increase the HP of all UFO fighters by 2 times.
All player fighters have 3 weapon slots with the possibility of installation cannon/ missiles/heavy missiles in each.

Edited by MrAlex

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The same Feature wit the HP you have in UFO ET from 2007 with the Energy-Shields. It’s OK but could be more Interesting if they were separate.

To make not the same mistakes the Devs done there and from Goldhawk in the Prwdecessor the separation makes more sense. 

you have your HP’s for the Fighter (say 100). That’s the Original-Hull HP from the Firefox.

Then you have 2 Plates of Steel for defense, which get separated like in the Infatry-Armor / Vehicle-Armor.

The light Variant give less Protection (about 20 Armor or so) and make the Fighter in Air-Battles faster and more Agile etc.

The Heavy Armor gives more Protection (about 50 Armor or so) and make the Fighter in Air-Battles slower, less agile (that’s the evasive) etc., but gives advantages in Close Combat or such.

With the Armor-Upgrade you get say 50 % more Protection.


that makes the Airfight interesting and gives you more Possibilities for upgrade your fighters. An more detailed Thinking is in my second one.

Edited by Alienkiller

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3 hours ago, MrAlex said:

First of all, I want to balance the phantom. It is now too effective against UFO fighters, but the lack of ability to carry missiles and heavy missiles makes it vulnerable to other long-range UFOs. It should be an equal fighter of medium rank between an angel and a fury. We can simply make fixed 3 weapon slots for all fighters with the ability to install cannons / missiles and heavy missiles in any of them.
In addition, due to the impossibility of using evasion, heavy plates are not effective. The idea is to make available the use of heavy plates by a fighter for dog fighting using canons with the possibility of using evasion if the fighter does not have heavy missiles.

Also, in my opinion, the aircraft platings should give additional HP (def) in% of the base value. Now there is a fixed value (150) which for Angel gives 75% HP, and for fury less than 10%.

Haven´t had the Phantom. Worked only with the Firefox-Planes (X-25). I find the Idea from the Devs very interessting to make a Plane for Dogfights, because the Missles won´t work on any UFO. Every Slot for using any Weapon is not good. There I like the Idea from the Predecessor and UFO ET (1 or 2 Rocket-Slots on the Wings) and 1 Cannon-Slot like it´s normal. Evtl. 1 Exception like the Phantom, which is an Experimental Fighter directly after Research.

Here the Idea with the Slot-Upgrades (like for the Infantry) comes up. You can refit / upgrade the Phantom step by step to a new Multirole fighter like the X-25´s.

The Aircraft-Platings [Steel-Armor / Upgraded Armor] like they are now are OK, but they do the same Mistake like in the Predecessor and UFO Extraterstials with the Energy-Shields (give only HP). If they were seperate and give Armor instead they were much more interessting.

To make not the same mistakes like the Devs from UFO ET (Chaos Concept) and from Goldhawk in the Predecessor (Xenonauts 1) the separation from the Aircraft-Armor-Platings in Xenonauts 2 makes more sense and would be an Poineer how to do it correctly.

1. You have your HP’s for the Fighter (say 100 for the X-25 Angel) as Standard.

2. Then you have 2 Plates of Steel for defense, which get separated like in the Soldier-Armor / Vehicle-Armor.

- The light Armor-Variant give less Protection (about 20 Armor or so) and make the Fighter in Air-Battles faster, more Agile (that´s Evasive Maneuvers), etc. Good for dogfights and short range Missles.

- The Heavy Armor-Variant gives more Protection (about 50 Armor or so) and make the Fighter in Air-Battles slower, less agile (that’s the evasive) etc. It gives advantages for the Long-Range fighters (I call them Bombers with the Heavy Rockets) if they come in an Close Combat Situation.

- With the Standard-Armor-Upgrade [Alloy Plating] you get say about 50 % more Protection for both Armor-Variats.

3. After you get the Alien-Armor-Working-Thing-Research (where you can produce from it more then little Upgrades [Alloy-Plating-Upgrade for Soldier- / Vehicle- and Aircraft-Armor]) you can upgrade your Airfraime from the Angel-Interceptors to give it more Survive-Potential [HP´s], refit the Engines to give them the Afterburner-Power, make the Airplaine lighter, etc.

4. That could be another Tech-Profileration for your Founders, which have the whatever F-16 Fighter, Mig 29 etc. It´s not to high, but gives them too an better Survive-Potential too.

5. After you get more Research you get an new Experimental- Fighter-Version (Phantom or so which is the first one) and is from the Alien-Alloys. The first new Fighter you get is for Dogfights and can only carry light Missles and a Cannon. You have more Armor and HP to fight the Aliens, but you have to go on Dogfight-Range. That leads with more R & D, Airbattles, Experiance from Workshop, etc. to an new Fighter-Generation [the 3rd one] and offers the Strenghtes and Weaknesses.

- Therefore you have to upgrade your X-25 Angels and use the new Fighter too to get more Experiance for the third Generation Fighter.

The Upgrade from your older Fighters and the refits later from the Phantom / Angels is an Idea I got form the UNI-Mod from UFO ET. There you have an Option to buy Advanced Fighter Equipment to make Radar-/Sensor, Targeting etc. for all your Fighters (the beginning ones and later the R & D ones better), but it has 1 or 2 Weaknesses too. 

The lower Upgrade / Frame-Refits in our Idea gives the Player more Possibilitys for the Player to upgrade his fighters to a Maximum Level and use them together. Exactly that makes the Game much more interessting.

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15 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

If they were seperate and give Armor instead they were much more interessting.

If this armor is like the armor of a soldier (we still have it now), it doesn't matter. Because it's just extra hit points. But if it will give protection points (as in most strategies) that reduce the damage from the weapon with each hit, then it will make sense. 

The problem is that such a change (as well as the idea of the weight of the fighter) may require significant changes and time developers. Although I think it's worth it.

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I think we need to add research on fighter technology that will add a shield that could repel or absorb heavy weapons.
And plates instead of additional HP should give protection (which will reduce damage of cannons). Heavy missiles (or other heavy weapons carried by UFOs) must ignore the plates (due to the high penetration parameter)

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@ChrisWhen do you plan to look at possible changes in air combat? I'm interested in the balance of the Phantom in the first place.
And what do you think about the proposed changes?

 

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Exactly Mr Alex. That´s I´m talking about the whole time. Plates give protection. Light plates make the Plane more maneuverable and gives lesser protection and heavy ones lesser maneuverable and gives more protection.

Heavy Missles or heavy Weapons destroy the Plates or reduce the Protection much faster (like it´s in Ground Combat with the Vehicles) and get damaging the Hull itself until the Pilot have to use the Ejection Seat because the Plane isn´t flyable anymore (like it is now in the Air Battle).

We had cool Equipment for the Fighters in the first real Test-Versions, but I like your Idea with Upgrading the Fighters in Engine, Hull, Armor, Shield etc. like it´s doable with the Soldiers and Vehicles.

Edited by Alienkiller

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3 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Plates give protection.

The plates must give protection. Currently, they give only additional HP.

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