Current XP/stat gain system?

[Mnemnify]

So I see that the topic of theoretical experience gain stat increase systems has been discussed to dea... er, extensively. What I'm wondering about is the current implementation of experience and stat gain. It seems clear to me that the old UFO system is not being used, just from correlating my soldiers actions in-battle and the results in the Debriefing.

Anyone have any insights to share?

[craftomega]

The soldiers must shoot there weapons to get any stats gain.

If they kill they also can gain.

[Mnemnify]

I've had light scout missions where only one soldier fired - one shot kill, and another soldier gained stats, but the soldier who fired and killed gained none.

[Chris]

The soldiers learn by doing. In the case of accuracy, I think it's the number of shots fired at hostile units per battle, irrespective of whether you actually hit or not. All attributes are capped at an increase of 2 each battle.

[Chris]

I've dug this up, but I'm not sure how accurate it is these days:

• Action Points – The soldiers gain an extra Action Point for every five hundred APs used on the battlefield, though they can only accumulate one thousand (2 APs) per mission.
  
• Strength – This is based on what the soldier has carried during the mission, as a factor of average weight carried multiplied by the number of steps taken.
  
• Accuracy – The soldiers gain an extra accuracy point for every eight shots fired at an alien. They can only accumulate 2 Accuracy points per mission.
  
• Reflexes – The soldiers gain an extra point in Reflexes for every four times they successfully reaction fire at an enemy, though they can only accumulate 2 Reflexes points per mission.
  
• Bravery – For each two failed morale checks a soldier endures, they gain an extra Bravery point. A soldier can only accumulate four failed morale checks (2 Bravery points) per mission.
  
• Health – The soldiers gain an extra Health point for every four skill increases they receive in their other skills.
  

The figures are cumulative, so if you five 5 shots on one mission and 3 on the next you'll get an Accuracy increase.

That having been said, both the Accuracy and the Reflexes stats seem rather hard to increase. We should probably open those values out to modders.

• 
  

[Hellstormer]

I haven't ever seen any of my soldiers use reaction fire. I hear some people have so I trust it is in but my guys seem to prefer direct orders so I've not seen any reflexes increase. Usually after a battle all of my soldiers gain something even if it's only APs. Apparently I move around a lot!

[jimbobfury]

Same here, Hellstormer. Not once have my guys performed a reaction fire shot.

In this latest build I've even upped the new 'reaction modifier' stat that each weapon has, and they still just sit there like idiots as an alien runs 4 paces in front of them.

I'd really like to get it working, as reaction fire ambushes were always a big part of my strategy in UFO: EU.

[Chris]

Yeah. It does seem a little uncommon. Hmmm. We'll address it after the Kickstarter.

[jamoecw]

as far as accuracy goes, why not have it based on the miss chance of a shot without extra APs used to make it more accurate? something like X1+X2+X3+(etc.)=8=1 Accuracy point (max 2)

where X1 is the miss chance (before APs used to increase accuracy) of the first shot to result in damage of an alien. X2 would be the second, etc.

• so snipers that are always spending APs to get one good shot off don't get penalized for taking less shots.
  
• snap shots which are fired more should compensate through volume of fire.
  
• auto shots which are for suppression aren't being aimed properly anyway, so it makes sense that a soldier who does use or need accuracy will get as much.
  
• auto shots to kill will compensate through volume of fire, like the snap shots.
  
• rocket launchers will compensate for low ammo, as they deal splash damage, and thus an increased chance to deal damage irregardless of accuracy.
  

Edited April 28, 2012 by jamoecw

[IceVamp]

Fairly good points jamoecw. My snipers are usually the ones with the kills, but far less number of shots indeed.

[Mnemnify]

It's so hard to resist suggesting advancement mechanics, no matter what has been said before. If I'm repeating any of that, my apologies...

I've dug this up, but I'm not sure how accurate it is these days:

• Strength – This is based on what the soldier has carried during the mission, as a factor of average weight carried multiplied by the number of steps taken.
  

In my first game (9.5) I began with every soldier carrying only enough to keep all his AP's. Never got a single Strength point - ran 12 to 15 missions. I began a new game (not because of the Strength thing!) and overloaded every soldier just enough to lose one or two AP's. I did nothing else different. After the first mission every soldier got a Strength point.

So I doubt it's currently a function of weight carried and number of steps. It seems likely it's a factor of excess weight carried and number of steps. Or perhaps there's a multiplier applied to excess weight.

I do think the latter is a quite good system. But perhaps the benefit from non-excess weight is too small. In general, raising your Strength faster by giving up some AP's is a good strategic choice, IMO. But absolutely having to give up AP's to get any Strength gain, as seemed to be happening with my first game is perhaps a bit too simplistic.

• Reflexes – The soldiers gain an extra point in Reflexes for every four times they successfully reaction fire at an enemy, though they can only accumulate 2 Reflexes points per mission.

A fairly straightforward system. But it does share the problem us old folks experienced with UFO and TFTD (and more? I only played those two). Poor reactors get left behind, in a feedback system that favors those who start out with higher Reflexes. "Reaction Stealing," of course, is the operative term. Of course, if you know the term you know the workaround. Get your cat-like soldiers away from the action or too depleted to contribute, and let the slow-witted improve (or die quickly). Here, a similar system as what I said about Strength above might mitigate the problem: small gain for failing a reaction test, larger for succeeding. The highly reflexive (so to speak) would still advance faster, but not by as much, and contrived training-by-combat would give those learning to be faster a better shot to live through the practice. It's more realistic, to boot (as much as that's worth, or not worth) - we often learn more from our failures .... It also retains the small victory we feel for getting off a reaction -- "One more dead alien, and a real shot at getting better at this sort of thing!"

• Action Points – The soldiers gain an extra Action Point for every five hundred APs used on the battlefield, though they can only accumulate one thousand (2 APs) per mission.

I wish I didn't know that one. It's pretty easy, if tedious, to game that system. I rather like the Primary/Secondary split used years ago for TU's. Hard to exploit it for easy TU's. Might I suggest Health increases based on Strength and Bravery increases, and AP increases based on Reflexes and Accuracy? A similar mechanic but a relatively plausible variation: physical and mental fitness make you more durable, combat acumen makes you execute more efficiently. Verisimilitude aside, maybe it's a minor tweak in complexity that adds a bit of depth to the system?

Hmm, on Firing Accuracy ... not to harp on one thing repeatedly, but re-use of the 'more for success, but some gain for failure' model would work nicely here, too. I do like that you don't have to hit your target to get any advancement.

And getting steeled by living through the sheer terror and panic, not exclusively by avoiding it - that's a spot-on change.

Lastly, kudos for the persistent, cumulative system.

[jamoecw]

hmmm, the thought of gain on failure could be done with using the hit chance for missed shots, but using the same formula as i posted above. thus a person spraying a bunch of bullets with 10% chance of hitting would get .1 for each bullet missed. though most likely using an auto shot when the enemy will die with 1 bullet at close range would result in many misses with high chance of hitting, thus gaining loads accuracy exp, making them level up much faster than the people who need the accuracy stat. i like the idea of learning from failure, but i don't see how it helps anything.

as far as strength, if it helps you throw a grenade farther then it would be helpful to increase that stat even if you aren't overburdened. but if it doesn't, and the troop in question isn't overburdened, how would an increase in strength help him? if it does help him throw grenades, why not use that to help him improve, as well as being overburdened?

as for reaction, i don't see how better reaction isn't useful ever (barring ai bugs, like using a rocket launcher at point blank).

[Lotean]

Hmmmmm... Also I've been thinking. Well two thoughts. Why not have training programs available to soldiers, I.E. Heavy weapons, sharp shooter, CQB, Anti- Psyonic (Psychic). Then why not have pilots being a part of the personnel roster. The air war is just as if not more important than the ground conflict.

Oh maybe an officer corps for Sgt's wanting/needing to move up to a better level of leadership. Hmmmm... maybe have a slot that provides 'global' benifits like a 'company commander', 'platoon commander' type thing?

[IceVamp]

as far as strength, if it helps you throw a grenade farther then it would be helpful to increase that stat even if you aren't overburdened. but if it doesn't, and the troop in question isn't overburdened, how would an increase in strength help him? if it does help him throw grenades, why not use that to help him improve, as well as being overburdened?

You can carry more with high strenght. Armour is heavy, so you want high strength. The later weapons might also be heavier, I haven't checked the weights of laser weapons, but Wolf armour is heavier than Jackal.

But I like the idea of being able to toss a grenade further, though at the moment it seems more like an accuracy issue with long throws.

[Xentax]

Hmm...sounds like I want to start all my guys with heavy armor and MGs and let them sink or swim (almost literally).

Overall, I don't think there's anything "wrong" (as in, broken and HAS to be changed) with the current mechanics - and the per-mission cap on gains is a good way to avoid insane meta-gaming.

If I was going to tweak it further, I think it'd be on the strategic side. In addition to the existing 'basic training', how about letting you mark a stat for each soldier as their 'advanced training regimen'? For that stat, for that soldier, their per-mission cap is 3 instead of 2, and/or they have a lower threshold to raise that stat.

Maybe late-game research could give you the ability to mark 2 such stats for each soldier?

And of course you can change it as you like. So if you want to build focused characters (pick a sniper and max out his accuracy, then reflexes, then everything else; meanwhile a heavy gunner focuses on strength, then health, then action or reflexes), or work on having every soldier have good minimum stats - it's a strategic choice you manage *strategically*, rather than tactically.