Psionics Balancing

[herpertDerpert]

I understand that psionics have been extensively discussed previously during beta testing, but I would like to start a new discussion purely from the point of gameplay. These are my original thoughts as far as I know. If they are coincidental with previous suggestions, I apologize and do not mean to take credit for another person's earlier statements. I would like to exclude metaphysics and fluff from this discussion (e.g. psionics is like a sixth sense that does not require LOS to use).

In short, I believe that psionics need to rebalanced to give the player an active, immediate say to keep the game fun. In it's current implementation, psionics punish the player without the option for them to resist in any meaningful way. I have beaten Xenonauts already and I am honestly put-off from replaying it because of how patently unfun the game becomes in the endgame specifically because of psionics. The way it is now, whether or not my soldiers decide to start teamkilling is entirely out of my control. I do not know the formulas, but I feel that even with 70+ bravery, it is still quite possible for a Colonel to be mind-controlled or start berserking (i.e. teamkill). This is not even talking about any Xenonauts with low morale on a given strike team. Given how soldiers are usually flanking each other, are in close proximity, and have weapons that can reliably defeat their corresponding body armor with ease (i.e. Lasers vs. Jackal, Plasma vs. Wolf, MAG vs. anything), this implies late-game psionics allow the aliens to have a non-negligible chance of killing your soldiers without any risk to them every single turn.

The crux of the issue is not that teamkilling occurs at all. Even if the formula was adjusted so that it occurred rarely but the same gameplay mechanics remained, the idea that makes psionics so frustrating would remain--psionics induce teamkilling without giving the player a meaningful option to prevent it.

I cannot overstate how absolutely frustrating this is. This gameplay design effectively means a Xenonaut may drop dead at any point in time when assaulting either a Battleship or a Cesean Carrier in the late game. True, this gives the game an omnipresent sense of dread and desperation. The player is never really on par with the aliens because humans never develop psionics or true psionic resistance. Therefore, the aliens always seems mysterious and above the player's level. I agree with this design choice for the game's atmosphere, but I believe it has been taken too far. In the late game, I avoid taking on Carrier and Battleship missions because being punished by psionics is so fickle. Even if I execute sound tactical play, I can still be penalized for something over which I have no real control. Effectively, ground missions stop happening in the late game unless the player enjoys what amounts to being randomly punished. As psionics are currently implemented, my strategic instincts say late-game ground missions should only occur to capture a Praetor and then do the last mission because otherwise the player runs a risk of having their veterans wantonly teamkilled. This cuts out the biggest and, what used to be in the early and midgame, the most enjoyable gameplay component in the late game. To remedy these issues, I have suggestions for both mind control and berserking.

I propose that mind control be restricted to direct LOS of the psionic or squad sight. That way, there is a way for a player to avoid the risk of mind control--aggressively kill every alien immediately upon contact or retreat. This puts the power in the player's hands: do I continue pushing and risk friendly fire on the immediate next alien turn, or do I take a few pot shots and run?

With respect to berserking, I believe that units should not berserk immediately upon being affected by Fear (I am trying to refer to the ability that drops a unit's morale and puts them at risk of berserking). Instead, a unit should be put at a high risk of berserking on the next turn. After being notified that a soldier is at high risk of berserking, the player then has to make a decision: do I need this unit to continue doing whatever it is doing right now (e.g. covering the left flank) and risk a probable team kill on the next alien turn, or should I play it safe (e.g. retreat and drop weapon, therefore expose left flank and lose ground/momentum)? With this change, I think it would also be appropriate for the berserk-inducing-ability to not require LOS, as it would then be in the player's power to accept risk or not.

Aside from psionics, I believe Xenonauts is for the most part balanced. I enjoyed playing the game, but found psionics to be excessively and arbitrarily punitive. These proposals address the key problem with psionics in my opinion: the fact that in their current implementation psionics punish the player without any real way for the player to resist. It's like playing chess and having one player risk losing a piece based on a statistically-independent dice roll that goes on in some remote backroom. That one player could be strategically and tactically outpacing the other player, but he/she is still being penalized by an inherently unfair system. Thanks for reading.

Edited July 5, 2014 by herpertDerpert
Replaced italics with underline for emphasis. Fixed grammar and ambiguous pronouns.

[ViniJones]

This has been said many times over. And will hopefully continue to be said until either the psionics gets an overhaul or the sun burns out.

The system is cheap and extensively annoying, not challenging. Panic system blows too.

[Chthon]

I agree that psionics are simply a bad mechanic as it stands. In a game where your tactics determine how well you do in battles, having a mechanic that there is no valid tactic against doesn't fit. If there was a defense, either in how you advance and deal with aliens you see, or distribute gear, then it would fit, but as it stands no. It's only there because it was in X-Com.

Either give us the equivalent of a tinfoil hat helmet we can put on our forward soldiers, a way we can raise bravery to better resist (which from what I understand is the primary resistance, not morale), or just make it so we can avoid having random soldiers picked out whenever the AI feels like it. Otherwise it's just an obnoxious RNG simulator in an otherwise highly tactical game.

[KevinHann]

It's a simple solution for me:

- Add mid tier armor, probably somewhere between Wolf, Buzzard and Predator, which has a large chance of switching a successful Berserk to just Panic;

- Add late tier armor before/after Sentinel, which always switches a successful Berserk/Mind Control into Panic, but cannot fly or be used with heavy weapons.

- Balance both armors researches so that they can be accessed in time to counter psionics if the player times the research progression well enough, giving him the chance/power/choice to respond before suffering too much damage.

[herpertDerpert]

I'm glad we all agree that the primary issue with psionics is that it robs the player of choice and therefore makes the game not fun in the late game. However, I think that solving the issue by adding items that tweak the mindcontrol/berserk formula as it is is not the most elegant solution available. This would add more items and affect the current equipment ecosystem (e.g. psionic armor made wolf obsolete because it has psionic protection and is far-better/far-worse/the-same; psionics are negligible now because I made everyone an anti-psionics key fob).

Instead, I believe the rebalancing psionics should involve a change in the strategic level as I described in my original post. Psionics changes the strategic playing field, therefore the most parsimonious solution should be a strategic one. This would preserve the dread associated with fighting a superior alien force while addressing the issue of player choice.

[ViniJones]

While I admit the "5 minute warning" solution for berserking sounds interesting, the psionics door is shut to us, we should be able to shut ourselves in from it. Of course the gear would have to be rebalanced, but I imagine that would be less work than actually making the aliens not see your exact location at all times. Or am I mistaken?

[KevinHann]

I'm pretty sure the armor workaround is pretty much possible already (although maybe the option I'm suggesting isn't yet, Solver would have to clarify this) while rebalancing the entire psionics mechanic is undoubtedly much harder - and on top of it its also very hard to reach universal agreement of how exactly it should be "fixed".

[herpertDerpert]

I can see why we would want a way to be immune to psionics since the player currently cannot use them. However, doing this would send Xenonaut's psionics down the same path as XCOM:EW's Thin Man poison spit: an ability that is absolutely terrifying for only a portion of the game until you have hard counters to it. Then it becomes a joke. I'm not sure if we would really want to discard something that I feel contributes to the underdog vibe Xenonauts has between aliens and the player.

I'm afraid only a developer can definitively answer the question about how much work it would take to have aliens not know the exact location of Xenonauts at all times. But if my memory serves, a prior thread claimed aliens knew where Xenonauts were and a programmer replied that when Xenonauts have been spotted or are breaching the ship, aliens become more aggressive and charge where they think Xenonauts are. Therefore, the AI does not actually use Xenonaut's exact locations in its decision making algorithm; it makes guesses and goes from there. I have not seen the code, but if I were the programmer who had to implement an ability that did not reply on LOS and could affect any one on a certain team, it would look like this in pseudocode:

if (psionicCooldownDone) { #check if psionic ability is available

target= randomlySelect(rosterOfXenonautUnits) #returns the name of one Xenonaut unit and store it in variable target

psionicAbility(target) #apply psionic ability to target

}

It would be rather straightforward to edit this by possibly invoking LOS code involved in firing the sniper rifle (basically treating mind control like a firearm that could use squad sight, while treating berserk-inducing-ability as described above). But again, this is just speculation on my part. Only a programmer familiar with the source code would know how much work it would take to implement a strategic level redesign of psionics.

As far as rebalancing items, I suspect this would involve a lot of ongoing qualitative editing of continuous variables (e.g. should psionic armor have X or Y armor points; should anti-psionic key fob provide complete immunity or increase resistance by X%). This could ostensibly take a long time to balance as values are tweaked over successive patches. I personally do not agree with this as it still leaves the fundamental issue (i.e. robs player of actively resisting psionics because there is still going to be a remote chance your units will suddenly freak out and kill each other without the player being able to counter it in an decisive manner). A strategic solution as I described in my original post would add a dynamic, and essentially binary in effectiveness, decision to how players engage a psionic enemy that hopefully doesn't defang psionics while balancing them.

I hope this doesn't come off as a personal attack to anyone or their suggestions. I am just trying to have a rigorous discussion and of course push my opinion of what the fix should be. Hopefully, if we have a through discussion, the devs might be glad we did most of the think-tank work for them and they can just code it up if it isn't too difficult--whatever the ultimate solution may be. This is really the best we can hope for as far as having the psionics issue addressed.

EDIT: Also, adding items to the official game would require an artist to make new decals and such. I am not sure if the team keeps artists on salary. If not, then they would have to pay a commission to add this new item (i.e. adding items to the game would explicitly cost additional money). However, I am certain the team keeps programmers on salary.

Edited July 6, 2014 by herpertDerpert
Grammar; clarity; additional point about art comissions

[KevinHann]

No offense taken, such discussions could always provoke interesting solutions or inspire modders to look in a different direction than they even imagined would be possible or of interest to them.

I don't disagree with the points you raise but I feel the solution of armors (once again not the specific one I proposed as I'm pretty sure it's not possible atm) is already there to take, play with and balance - and some people are already doing that, I'm sure. While what you are talking about is a long way away at best, even if someone with access to the source code would consider the idea. You can't seriously suggest it would take even comparatively long to simply balancing equipment which is effectively already here.

I'd also argue losing your turn (sometimes on multiple units) combined with dread wouldn't be "a joke" but I acknowledge your desire to give the player more complex, active solutions. Please consider my proposal has a mod in mind rather than an universal feature - if and when someone comes up with a better execution which is accessible and ultimately better, great - but in the meantime it would certainly do a job for me - hopefully for others as well, and it would tie with other ideas I have in mind.

By the way there is a walkaround against psionics right now. It's an active one. Drop your weapons on the ground prior to clicking end turn. Repeat every turn.

[ViniJones]

The kamikaze mode, aliens go into, is not my issue. Its more about the nades flying out of nowhere on the exact spot of my trooper and aliens facing in the direction of a soldier closest to them regardless of obstacles and wether he was spotted coming in or not. I was under the impression itd be tricky not to use it, why would it be present otherwise? But lets drop that one.

Coming back to the los based mind control, which would probably disarm the praetors, could have some sort of a psionic reaction fire, so when a target gets spotted it gets assaulted immediately, instead of not having a chance to use the power at all. (Since wed all just pop our head in to sneak a shot and then quickly hide again)

EDIT: The workaround works of course, but with 20 soldiers, thats a lot of work.

[KevinHann]

Another point, are you sure LoS psionics would actually address your concerns? Imagine the following plausible scenario:

- You swipe your perimeter, position your soldiers and click end turn;

- Alien X walks into your vision perimeter and spots you;

- Praetor now has team view of your troops and attempts mind control.

Now imagine it happening ten times in a row after *carefully positioning your troops especially to avoid LoS and kill all possible aliens in sight*.

[ViniJones]

Out in the fields perhaps, but inside a base or a UFO, theres plenty to hide behind and reaction fire the alien before it can process the mess he just walked into.

Itd be a good start if nothing else.

[Chthon]

Another point, are you sure LoS psionics would actually address your concerns? Imagine the following plausible scenario:

- You swipe your perimeter, position your soldiers and click end turn;

- Alien X walks into your vision perimeter and spots you;

- Praetor now has team view of your troops and attempts mind control.

Now imagine it happening ten times in a row after *carefully positioning your troops especially to avoid LoS and kill all possible aliens in sight*.

If I were smart and it worked that way, I'd make sure that only my strongest willed soldiers were available for him to see.

[KevinHann]

If I were smart and it worked that way, I'd make sure that only my strongest willed soldiers were available for him to see.

Lol, that would be no less tedious to pursue in every mission than the current situation If you are after 30-40 GC to complete the game maybe, but if you do hundreds of them... ugh!

By the way why do you consider alien LoS and YOUR LoS are the same thing? You can't effectively line up all your troops to have LoS of every potential target and it never guarantees a kill anyway. I'm pretty sure whatever AP you reserve you will often end up in the abovementioned scenario, or at least often enough to make the problem no less annoying which effectively nullifies the effort necessary to implement that change in the first place. Or it would only appeal to a relatively small percentage of players whilst many others will still have the same complaints.

*D'oh, an alien showed up and my soldier was MC'd, psionics is broken*

*I preserved so many TUs and they all missed as if the alien was gonna throw a grenade, MC'd! Do something about it!*

*Psi is unbearable, I'm quitting the game.*

Edited July 6, 2014 by KevinHann

[herpertDerpert]

@LOS Psionics Comment:

I think so. Yes, the scenario you described is possible, but I think this can be addressed by basically setting up a reaction fire trap against any aliens that try to get LOS on you to permit psionics. True, they could get through, but that's risk that I think there is a precedent for when fighting aliens you can't go toe-to-toe with (e.g. androns when you have ballistics, camping with shotguns next to doors/teleporters).

@psionic reaction fire:

That would still result in teamkills and lead to the same frustrating problem of not being able to get near aliens without suffering unavoidable casualties based on an external dice roll. Besides, it wouldn't be as easy as running in an shooting the psionic in the face, because then you'd have to deal with all the other aliens in the room. Running into a room and killing a single alien tends to leave a Xenonaut with no TUs that is flanked by other aliens. The player would have to either already have a good stack and the manpower to kill everything in one go, or pursue a more conservative strategy (e.g. charge in the room and stack up closer in a blind spot; kill units with dangerous weapons first and take the risk that mind control might fail).

@coding implementation of psionics rebalance:

We could debate this forever without a definitive conclusion. You're right, this could take a very long time if psionics were implemented in a convoluted way, which is a very real possibility when coding under pressure and deadlines. However, in my simple mind, the coding for psionics could be easy to alter if it was implemented in a modular fashion.

@adding armors:

I agree that adding an armor, or even editing an existing one, that changes the way units respond to panic/psionics is a solution. It could be a fast solution if items can alter the wearer's bravery stat. Currently no items I know of in the game alter bravery, so I'm not sure if it's possible given how the coders implemented items and stat changes. Maybe it's a one-line addition since Predator armor gives you 100 strength. Perhaps Sentinel can give you 100 Bravery so players have to decide if having a walking tank possibly freak out is worth having on the team? Everything ultimately will be dependent on some code editing to balance psionics and only a coder would know what is easiest given how variables and data structures are laid out.

[KevinHann]

@adding armors:

I agree that adding an armor, or even editing an existing one, that changes the way units respond to panic/psionics is a solution. It could be a fast solution if items can alter the wearer's bravery stat. Currently no items I know of in the game alter bravery, so I'm not sure if it's possible given how the coders implemented items and stat changes. Maybe it's a one-line addition since Predator armor gives you 100 strength. Perhaps Sentinel can give you 100 Bravery so players have to decide if having a walking tank possibly freak out is worth having on the team? Everything ultimately will be dependent on some code editing to balance psionics and only a coder would know what is easiest given how variables and data structures are laid out.

It is officially possible, the Community Edition Patch already made it possible to mod it in. Next version of XNT will certainly use the mechanic.

[ViniJones]

Yeeeees it would result in a mind control attempt, but on the target you choose, not a random dice roll, he could resist(if bravery actually meant shit) or he could be armored enough to survive the impending storm of plasma, or just die in the name of something bigger, no victory is without sacrifice after all. The point is the players tactical choice would determine the outcome. This reaction fire would only be present for the los of the actual psion, not his lackeys of course.

As for cleaning up rooms, depends on how much you want to clean it, its fairly easy eradicate anything inside, it takes time to pick off targets until eventually only the one you want alive is left, but its possible without charging in and killing everything at once.

[Hathur]

I solved this myself by lowering the alien's "psionic strength" stat of psi capable aliens by about 30%. Mind controls and panic still happen, but far less frequently - enough that it no longer drains the fun out of the game.

Original Xcom had this problem too, but nowhere near as bad since your soldiers there could learn psi powers too and give some of the same abuse right back to the aliens (which felt satisfying).

My little "cheat" fix I feel makes up somewhat for the lack of psi powers for my own troops.

EDIT: oh, I also reduced the range on some of the powers too a bit, forcing the aliens to have to get / be closer to use them in the first place.

Edited July 6, 2014 by Hathur

[Chthon]

Lol, that would be no less tedious to pursue in every mission than the current situation If you are after 30-40 GC to complete the game maybe, but if you do hundreds of them... ugh!

By the way why do you consider alien LoS and YOUR LoS are the same thing? You can't effectively line up all your troops to have LoS of every potential target and it never guarantees a kill anyway. I'm pretty sure whatever AP you reserve you will often end up in the abovementioned scenario, or at least often enough to make the problem no less annoying which effectively nullifies the effort necessary to implement that change in the first place. Or it would only appeal to a relatively small percentage of players whilst many others will still have the same complaints.

*D'oh, an alien showed up and my soldier was MC'd, psionics is broken*

*I preserved so many TUs and they all missed as if the alien was gonna throw a grenade, MC'd! Do something about it!*

*Psi is unbearable, I'm quitting the game.*

When I pick my assaults, I look for the highest bravery units with the most move. I train them from there. They are my scouts, they are my front line. That is if I was smart enough to think to use them to put up front first.

Good tactics doesn't have to be tedious if you plan for it ahead of time.

[KevinHann]

When I pick my assaults, I look for the highest bravery units with the most move. I train them from there. They are my scouts, they are my front line. That is if I was smart enough to think to use them to put up front first.

Good tactics doesn't have to be tedious if you plan for it ahead of time.

Do you think I pick the soldiers regardless of Bravery and it's not top of my criteria?

I would agree if it was efficient enough to negate the psionics to a reasonable degree but it is still a huge chance to roll lower number than the alien regardless of how high your Bravery is, and it's still pure luck beyond your control for you can plan only that much. How many Battleships have you assaulted without suffering MC?

[Chthon]

Battleships? All of them... of course I've only faced one on my last run. I did get MC'd on my last large base raid. Even still, if a scout gets MC'd it might not be the end of the world, it's when it happens to someone in a position to deal damage to your team that you have to worry.

Don't get me wrong, I still want tin foil hats to pass out. Some sort of psionic scrambler I can give a soldier to protect him from a certain amount of attacks or something. However putting your bravest troops forward is also the way to go, after all, what happens if or when your protection runs out?

How would that be for everyone? A researchable psionic scrambler that can be used from the backpack. You can carry multiple, but they are similar in size to a medkit, and only block X attacks before they wear off. Make it 2-3 or so. It's not a separate armor obsoleting all other armors, and you have to trade equipment space for temporary protection. At most you might be able to carry 3 that will block the first 6-9 psionic attacks that come at you. Couple this with the aliens needing LoS on the target of their attack and now it's tactical again.

[KevinHann]

I bet we could come with some pretty cool stuff, mate, but the basic reasons I like the armor more are two:

- The mechanic is already there, it's virtually accessible right now, it's just a matter of "turning it on" - while a new item would probably require further source code tweaks from Solver and I don't know if he would be interested - perhaps a great idea would get him going though;

- I like that the player has to pay a price for MC protection, you can't always get the best kickass equipment with max armor, 360 degree vision, flight and yeah, MC protection... It would be nice if you had to give up on some of them OR use them and run the odds of getting MC'ed. Plus if you don't like it - you can just keep playing the way you have done so by now