That Sweet Spot

[dpelectric]

In regards to "defensive" and "passive" aliens turtling in their ships...

A lot of people have mentioned/complained about ETs just sitting in their ships, never venturing out, and seemingly unable to open their own front door. It's been stated in this forum that in earlier builds aliens could and did emerge from their vessels, but were simply cut down by players who knew to camp outside. That makes me wonder how an effective system could be implemented, where the invaders are neither frozen in their UFOs nor simply reaction-fire cannon fodder.

What you'd be shooting for is that sweet spot where some of the aliens might unexpectedly charge out of their ships in random numbers before you have time to set up camp. You want that "oh crap" moment where half of your squad is still sweeping other parts of the map, and you can't focus overwhelming firepower on the emerging enemies. Problem of course is that different players clear maps at different speeds, some racing ahead aggressively and others inching forward methodically.

So you'd have to set up parameters where the invaders have x amount a chance of coming out in x numbers during turns x-y. I wonder if it would be possible through community input to estimate a optimal range for this to occur, say, between turns 6-10 for a scout mission, 9-15 for a cruiser, etc...?

Another thought might be if you could somehow set up a triggering perimeter around the UFO. Let's say if any of your soldiers touches any tile (but the AI wouldn't know which) within 10 spaces (or make this vary depending upon size of the craft and/or type of mapset) of a downed ship, that would trigger the possibility of aliens emerging. Better yet make it when 3 or more Xenonauts contact this perimeter, so the player has to make a commitment to entering that zone rather than simply sending a private ahead while everybody else is safely on overwatch.

The aliens would also have to be given the chance to take cover if they rush out to meet heavy fire. I've noticed some of the maps have obstacles almost immediately in front of the main entrances that could serve this purpose. Alternately, give the ETs the capacity and strong inclination to throw smoke immediately upon exiting. Just imagine what a grand scene it would be if you were just ready to open a UFO door, and several sebillians came charging out in your midst under the cover of heavy smoke. Or simply opened the door and started spraying you with plasma, just like you do to them.

These may all be thoughts of an idle mind with too much time on his hands, but I thought it might be cool to discuss, if it hasn't already been heavily debated in previous threads I've missed.

What would you do to make the storming of a UFO more dicey and unpredictable?

[legit1337]

To me it is a non-issue.

Why would you give up a superior defensive position on the off chance that the enemy isn't expecting you to pull something as crazy as running outside and engaging them?

Sitting tight in the UFO and making them pay for trying to breach is a much better tactical choice. Remember this is not a terror mission. Their objective is to hold off local/xenonaut forces for long enough to get rescued, not rack up kills or wipe out any humans in the area.

My problem is with how the passive AI reacts. They just sit there doing nothing for the most part. They hardly shoot back, or change positions according to how the enemy is breaching.

I can see an alien MAYBE poking his head outside every once in awhile to let his buddies know what is going on, but that is it.

Edited April 20, 2014 by legit1337

[Gauddlike]

They shouldn't go outside when they do that either.

I would prefer them to duplicate the common player tactic of opening the door just long enough to spot enemies and maybe fire a shot before closing it again.

If they have grenades that would certainly give players a reason to be on their toes when stacking up for a breach.

I think this problem looks much worse on the smaller ships because there are only a couple of decent spots to take cover inside them.

There is nowhere else for the aliens to move to that is as good as their current spot so they don't move.

In general those spots do not have good line of fire to the UFO entrance, and the player usually keeps most of their troops out of sight anyway, so there is nothing for them to shoot at.

That means they have no incentive to fire or move so their tactical options are limited to sitting and saving TU for reaction fire.

I wonder how much of this perceived problem would be fixed if aliens could just use the doors defensively rather than them being more beneficial to the assaulting player.

[dpelectric]

Why would you give up a superior defensive position on the off chance that the enemy isn't expecting you to pull something as crazy as running outside and engaging them?

Why would you continue to employ the same unsuccessful turtling strategy that has resulted in every one of your downed ships having their surviving crews wiped out? Don't you think the aliens would realize it's time to try something different, even something desperate, in a bid to avoid their extermination too?

Their objective is to hold off local/xenonaut forces for long enough to get rescued, not rack up kills or wipe out any humans in the area

Then why are they running around in the open hunting down every civilian that they can find on every mission?

[Dirk Ralthar]

It's too bad the game doesn't have an adaptive AI in that regard, adapting to the player's actions. I know I will sometimes spend 4 or 5 turns positioning and aligning troops to make the breach on the UFO, and I know to almost always expect one directly in front of the door, just standing there for the first person in my stack up to blow him away. I do disagree with their current configuration with the way they pick a spot and just stay there; I had a cruiser earlier today that I cleared the bridge of with one guy with a plasma carbine. He popped the door open, killed the guy in front of it, and closed it. Next turn I opened it again, killed the guy standing next to him, closed it again. Next turn I walked into the room and just navigated around the shot blocking cover to avoid reaction fire while moving into point blank range and blasting away. One guy killed 5 Sebs and a harridan with only 1 reaction shot against him, and that hit one of the points of cover. At the very least, the AI should try to find more advantageous positions once the breaching team is in the room with them, not just stand there while the Xenonauts maneuver around them for the easy kills.

[dpelectric]

They shouldn't go outside when they do that either.

I'm not so sure about that.

The idea is to have the aliens emerge at a point in time before you have managed to concentrate the majority of your firepower on the bottleneck they would have to pass through, i.e. the door.

I'm thinking of the way most players approach sweeping a map, by splitting their squad into two (or, later, three) 4-member teams. If Team A spots the ship, and knows there is a random chance that a significant enemy force (maybe 3-5 aliens) could come out aggressively at any moment, their choice would be either to call for reinforcements or hunker down. If Team B moved to reinforce, they would feel compelled to cross uncleared territory at a pace engendering more risk than they would normally assume. If Team B didn't move comparatively quickly to reinforce, Team A would have to engage the aliens from a less than optimal standpoint (as you always enjoy now, by having your whole squad zeroed in on the sole entrance/exit).

Having the ETs use the doors defensively (opening them, taking a pot shot or two, then closing again) would certainly be better than them turtling all the time, but if they only did this it would allow you to have Team A keep an eye on them from a safe distance behind cover (maybe one or two guys also watching the fog of war) while Team B finished systematically clearing the rest of the map in the accustomed manner, then again coalesce near the ship to bring maximum firepower to bear.

The scenario would play out the same every time, with a tightly focused battle at the entrance. I'm thinking, instead, of presenting a distinct risk that a sizable enemy force could run out of the ship, throwing down smoke, taking cover, sprinting to flank, at that "sweet spot" in time before you've had a chance to move to prime firing locations, focus your weapons, and operate with the knowledge that the rest of the map is already comfortably secure.

[legit1337]

Why would you continue to employ the same unsuccessful turtling strategy that has resulted in every one of your downed ships having their surviving crews wiped out? Don't you think the aliens would realize it's time to try something different, even something desperate, in a bid to avoid their extermination too?

Even the best strategies do not work if the forces arrayed against you are overpowering. There is such a thing as a no-win scenario. In which case forcing the enemy to do a costly breaching action while they fight to the death and kill as many xenonauts as possible would be exactly what should be done. Considering surrendering means interrogation and execution for them.

Even so... a "change of strategy" does not mean abandoning a defensible chokepoint to instead go charging through said chokepoint into a gunline, turning their advantage into a disadvantage.

Then why are they running around in the open hunting down every civilian that they can find on every mission?

Sentries/guards posted outside the vessel will naturally want to clear civilians from the area. In this case that means kill them when they see them.

Edited April 21, 2014 by legit1337

[Gauddlike]

The scenario would play out the same every time, with a tightly focused battle at the entrance. I'm thinking, instead, of presenting a distinct risk that a sizable enemy force could run out of the ship, throwing down smoke, taking cover, sprinting to flank, at that "sweet spot" in time before you've had a chance to move to prime firing locations, focus your weapons, and operate with the knowledge that the rest of the map is already comfortably secure.

Would you increase the number of aliens on each map to help with that or move the aliens currently outside into the UFO?

Would some aliens still defend the UFO or would it be emptied?

[Muskrat]

Why not just default the door open? Let the aliens inside react to you as you approach, instead of giving you time to get perfectly set up. It could even be a variable with a chance of being open vs closed.

I did have a Sebillian scout come out at me in the latest build...once.

[kabill]

Why not just default the door open? Let the aliens inside react to you as you approach, instead of giving you time to get perfectly set up. It could even be a variable with a chance of being open vs closed.

I did have a Sebillian scout come out at me in the latest build...once.

Ironically, I think this would actually make it much harder to assault UFOs. I used to play around with blowing up UFO doors before assaulting, but I found this actually put me in a worse position then if I just stacked at the door and charged in.

[Gauddlike]

It depends on how much you need anything that is in that first room.

A rocket from across the map and you don't have to worry about breaching it at all.

I would prefer to replace the doors with a force field that allowed sight from inside but blocked it from outside.

Maybe even allow plasma to pass out but not in.

Make the doorway a real defensive structure.

If it is an energy field then it could also regenerate if you use explosives to blow it.

If not then an automatic door sensor that opens the door whenever anyone walks onto the tile or two just inside it.

[silenced]

In the beginning I used the 'stack'-tactic to breach UFOs. Lost quite some men due to reaction fire this way. Later on I switched to blasting them open with a machine-gun attack. Since they fire bursts of 10 rounds it's quite effective. My minimum amount of heavy weapons per squad is four soldiers anyways.

With this the suppression often works directly and suppresses those behind the door. Then it's either gas grenades (early game) or simply machinegun fire and anything else until everything inside is dead.

Further approach is different, especially with larger UFOs.

I've also had it quite often that I was still busy with aligning in front of the UFO, and suddenly the door went open and the slaughterfest was started by the aliens. With casualties on my side aswell.

There should be that awareness that having all the time you want is not 100% sure.

Edited April 22, 2014 by silenced

[dpelectric]

Would you increase the number of aliens on each map to help with that or move the aliens currently outside into the UFO?

Would some aliens still defend the UFO or would it be emptied?

Increase the number of aliens. That way roughly the same number, maybe one or two less, would still be guarding inside the ship. I mod considerably more ETs into my game thru the ufocontents folder (typical scout/light scout battles have 15-20 enemies, woohoo) so maybe I'm accustomed to raging firefights.

But anyhow, my thought was to deprive a player of sweeping a map in relative comfort. If the door was open to a UFO (or opened/closed) and the aliens could shoot out, yes, that would definitely make things more exciting, but the situation would still be comparatively static. Stay out of the line of fire and wait until the map is cleared, then gather all your soldiers to pound the entrance. If the aliens emerged aggressively from the vessel- again, using smoke, cover, possibly attempting to flank- before the area was secure, you would be balancing the need to respond to such a threat vs. the distinct risk of having enemies still in the FoW giving you a nasty surprise if you double-timed more men towards the ship.

In order for this to work, again, the aliens would have to emerge in sufficient strength to pose a real danger, and the timing would have to be unpredictable (say, between turns 5-10, or longer on larger maps) and often not occur at all so it couldn't be anticipated and gamed by the player. I'd like to see holy crap, they threw smoke and are running out of the ship, but half the map is still black and potentially hostile! I personally think that would be more hair-raising than shootouts at the entrance, and make approaching a UFO a truly apprehensive experience

[dpelectric]

I've also had it quite often that I was still busy with aligning in front of the UFO, and suddenly the door went open and the slaughterfest was started by the aliens. With casualties on my side aswell.

Really??? In my 243 hours (per Steam) of playing I had that happen ONCE. That's exactly what I'm babbling about, exactly what I wish would happen! In my experience it's a snoozefest in front of the door; my guys take their sweet time lining up just so, treating their wounds, reloading their weapons, swapping dirty jokes, smoking fat cigars, etc.. The suspense for me, until I open the door, is next to zero. I wonder why in the world you've been having all the fun while I'm watching the grass grow???

There should be that awareness that having all the time you want is not 100% sure.

Yes! That's precisely what I'm trying to say

Edited April 23, 2014 by dpelectric

[SW47]

I like that idea. Maybe something like that, and to take an idea from Lee Stephen's novella, maybe a roof hatch where aliens can emerge from with a height advantage? That would scare the ever-loving crap out of us, but get the adrenaline pumping!