[v19.5 Ground Combat] - Suppression Not Working

[kabill]

Caveat - this might not be a bug if my understanding of the suppression mechanics is wrong.

I was just playing a ground mission and shot a large number of rounds at a Caesan (at least two LMG burst attacks and one AR burst attack) followed by a flash bomb for good measure. Some of the shots I made actually hit the target and the flash bomb landed adjacent to the alien.

None of this caused any suppression. By my understanding of the suppression mechanics, the alien would have had to have had a huge (~200) bravery score or a very high armour score for this to have happened (neither of which are the case, hence my assumption that this is a bug).

I have a save game with the alien in question on the map if this would be useful to look at.

[if this helps, I've seen someone else comment in the Modding forum that they've thrown a few flash bombs on a Sibellian before now and not suppressed it either, which again I'm not sure should be possible assuming it works as I understand things.

EDIT: The thread I mentioned: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/6630-Greande-Issues]

Edited July 31, 2013 by kabill

[Ol' Stinky]

The guy in that thread's using v18, and like Walrus said in the thread, the FB in that version acts like a bullet: so it doesn't suppress if the target's out of the grenade's range. I think it's got a range of 10 in v18? This isn't the case in v19 because of disableDamageScaling being introduced for grenades/rockets. So if the alien's 11 squares away, he won't actually lose any suppression points in v18.

I have noticed FBs not doing their job in v19 including v19.5, it tends to happen to me when cover's involved or inside a UFO. It looks like the FB lands inside a wall or prop and I guess that confuses the game a bit?

Take all of this with a pinch of salt, obviously, I'm not trying to pretend I'm any kind of authority.

[kabill]

Thanks, yeah - I'd forgotten about the version difference.

The incident I had involved cover, too (and I think there's been previous instances of it, looking back in retrospect). But the FB definately did not land in the prop when I tried it before posting this.

EDIT: Actually, I might need to go back and check whether the weapons I was attacking with were within range. They might not have been (and I didn't realise it mattered until now).

[kabill]

Went back to look at this - the guns were out of range so I presume shouldn't have been causing suppression then anyway. I was also able to get a FB to work.

I tried loading the start of the mission and doing it again. Mostly, it was fine, but there was one turn when two FBs failed to suppress an alien. It was directly behind cover from the FB at the time, though. Subsequently, when the aliens came out of cover, suppression was working fine again.

I'm going to keep an eye out for this in the future; maybe I'll find something a bit more solid than apparently I have at the moment.

[Ol' Stinky]

Right, I'm bumping this thread.

Flashbangs deal 100 suppression, non-coms have 40 bravery; it should be a 1 hit suppression. It's not a case of props absorbing the explosion, or at least, not always, as it's happened in open ground. So why does it happen?

It's actually something I mentioned earlier in the thread - you can't suppress an enemy who's out of range. A pistol (10 range) will deal no suppression to an enemy 11 squares away, for example. Despite the area of effect indicator, this applies to flashbangs too: if the enemy is out of throwing range, you can't suppress him by catching him in the area of effect. All that happens is that he takes the FB's stun damage.

Here's what I mean in pictures. Target out of throwing range alien:

Try to catch him in the aoe instead by throwing it one square in front:

No suppression, even though the FB lands on the square directly in front of the alien. (He was crouching before the grenade was thrown.)

[kabill]

I wanted to play with this because I've had experiences slightly different to what Stinky describes. Specifically, I've had instances where FBs seem to have done less suppression damage then they should have done, but using several still produced suppression eventually. I therefore wanted to test if the suppression value when out of range is *reduced* rather than negated entirely. Testing suggests the latter:

1) Soldier in grenade throwing range. Throws FB two squares away from the alien. Alien is suppressed with that single FB.

2) Reload. Two soldiers out of grenade throwing range. First on throws a FB to the same spot as in test 1. Hits the alien, but does not suppress. Second FB is thrown to the same place. Hits the alien and causes suppression.

3) Reload again. Soldiers outside of grenade range as per test 2. LMG soldier fires a burst at the alien. Does not suppress. Throw FB to the same spot as in previous tests. FB causes suppression.

The conclusion seems to be that Stinky's right that it's related to range, but being out of range isn't stopping all the suppression damage, only some of it.

P.S. Not sure many of those pics are actually useful. Sorry.

[StellarRat]

If I remember right suppression IS range dependant even for explosives. Unless something has changed this is a known problem (at least among the long term players). So, unless they fixed it, it's acting like it always has.

[kabill]

Stinky indicated above that he thought that disableDamageScaling was supposed to cure this problem (and this was introduced in 19.x).

In any case, I was under the impression firing outside of effective range stopped suppression entirely rather than reducing it*. I'm wondering whether there's a modifier being applied to suppression beyond effective range which isn't enough to counteract all of a FBs suppression value, hence why it can still work but be less effective.

*This may be wrong; I didn't even learn that firing outside of effective range was supposed to negate suppression until recently!

[StellarRat]

Stinky indicated above that he thought that disableDamageScaling was supposed to cure this problem (and this was introduced in 19.x).

Hmm...does that cover suppression, stun, and "real" damage? I wasn't aware of this fix, though, it's definitely a good thing.

[kabill]

Apparently not!

[Mytheos]

So is this what the prop range on grenades is about?

[StellarRat]

So is this what the prop range on grenades is about?

I think it used to control, accuracy, suppression, stun and damage (just like a rifle or other direct fire weapon) which was silly. I'm not sure if it's doing much of anything now for grenades. You'd have ask Aaron. It shouldn't really do much of anything except MAYBE determine how far you can throw or the potentially the accuracy.

[Mytheos]

I tested the prop range thing.

Changing it from 10 to 20 solves this problem

[kabill]

If the range property on weapons is the problem with grenades and suppression, I assume this will also be true of rockets (in that even if the rocket hits within it's range, any part of the explosion outside of the rocket launcher's range won't cause suppression). Haven't tested this, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the case given how suppression seems to work.

[StellarRat]

If the range property on weapons is the problem with grenades and suppression, I assume this will also be true of rockets (in that even if the rocket hits within it's range, any part of the explosion outside of the rocket launcher's range won't cause suppression). Haven't tested this, but I'd be very surprised if it wasn't the case given how suppression seems to work.

This is a good question for Aaron or Chris. It used to work exactly like you think, but I believe that was supposed to fixed. Whether it has been or not I don't know.

[Aaron]

Good detective work guys - I had thought the disable damage scaling property would cover this, but apparently not; I'll bump the range on grenades up as suggested, that should solve it without other obvious knock-on effects (famous last words).

[StellarRat]

Good detective work guys - I had thought the disable damage scaling property would cover this, but apparently not; I'll bump the range on grenades up as suggested, that should solve it without other obvious knock-on effects (famous last words).

IMO you should just fix the code to make it apply to all types of damage... :-) That seems like the more appropiate solution. I mean there may be other weapons, mods, etc... in the future that where someone would expect this property work as you would think it does. In my mind, it seems that it would only ever apply to AOE weapons of some type, so it really should be apply to all damage types. If you leave it as is it's going to confuse modders in the future. They won't know you have to extend the range to get the proper effects. Edited August 12, 2013 by StellarRat