More Squad Sight issues (with less rage this time)

[xcomnaut]

How does it not help the aliens? Yes, they take long shots occasionally, but some of their weapons can one shot you from across the map. Maybe alien AI needs a tweak to determine when a long shot is worthwhile, like only if there is 20% chance to hit or something. I've had plenty of soldiers killed and wounded on terror maps from long shots. Realistically, most soldiers that are shot in battle have no idea where the shot came from. If they did, they wouldn't have exposed themselves to fire from that location in the first place unless there was no cover available all.

Depends on situation. If it happens in open field then ok, but aliens like to shoot through buildings or from one room to another(alien base). So they dont hit me, but I know where they are and I know they used action points so I can go and kill them easy. Sitting in ambush and waiting for reaction fire would be much smarter. Actually, I lost more health to ambushers than "snipers".

[ThunderGr]

This is exactly what I mean. This is artificialy created "balancing" issue which does not help aliens at all but ruins exploration fun for players. Maybe need to fix implementation, so aliens shoot only if lets say 80%+ to hit rating, otherwise they can do something better that lose all their action points without doing any damage. I dont want AI to be dumb, but they act dumb right now

They AI is still being worked out. The aliens will be more picky on their shots, hopefully.

I think you missed this part.

[xcomnaut]

I think you missed this part.

I hope our observations will help devs to improve AI.

[StellarRat]

Depends on situation. If it happens in open field then ok, but aliens like to shoot through buildings or from one room to another(alien base). So they dont hit me, but I know where they are and I know they used action points so I can go and kill them easy. Sitting in ambush and waiting for reaction fire would be much smarter. Actually, I lost more health to ambushers than "snipers".

AH! You're talking about a known bug that will be fixed. Yes, the aliens currently have issues with trying to shoot through impenetrable objects, like walls, etc... based on squad sight. I think I understand what you're getting at right now. Rest assured this should be fixed as Goldhawk is aware of the problem. It's actually a lot better than it used to be.

[jazzglands]

This is exactly what I mean. This is artificialy created "balancing" issue which does not help aliens at all but ruins exploration fun for players. Maybe need to fix implementation, so aliens shoot only if lets say 80%+ to hit rating, otherwise they can do something better that lose all their action points without doing any damage. I dont want AI to be dumb, but they act dumb right now

I endorse this plan. Aliens should be able to shoot down walls and cover like humans can, but there comes a point where it seems silly for them to attempt it. Something as simple as a range restriction or hit% restriction could do a lot to alleviate that.

Perhaps the AI could have the aliens advance toward the humans if they can't get a reasonable shot off. That would make it important for the player to act aggressively and take out enemies as quickly as they could (or get themselves set up in a defensive area of the map) in order to keep from being surrounded.

[Danny Pockets]

First of all, I've learned that if I want people to read my whole post, I should probably write smaller posts. But seriously, you guys, every word I write is as important as the one that came before it. Maybe even more important! (Well, no, probably only as important...).

Are you SURE they are shooting at you by using squad sight?

They COULD be shooting at civilian within their sight range and simply missing, causing their projectiles to travel until something stops them...like unfortunately your soldiers.

No I wasn't sure and I addressed that in my post. I was facing Harriden's and so I'm not sure what their sight range is, and I don't know if they can target my soldiers out unrevealed areas of the maps, because they can see that far but my soldiers can't. Can anyone clarify this?

On the other hand, does anyone know how squad sight works exactly: specifically, if any alien has seen my soldier, does that mean that every alien can now target that soldier even when he he completely out of sight of the original alien that saw him?

This was a desert map without civilians, though, so it wasn't accidental fire that had been aimed at a civilian I couldn't see.

It is not only realistic, it is exactly as Chris stated. Squadsight is an advantage the human player will always have against the aliens, because you cannot do anything, as a developer, to remove it. So, the aliens have to have it, as well, as a balancing issue.

I can confirm that Chris has indeed said this, because he said it to me, in a wonderful dream that I had. We we're riding white horses, bareback, along a beach of jet black sand, set against a magnificent amber sunset...

But look here, and I'm sorry to repeat myself (even though repetition [is/] fun), but my question was really about the mechanics of squad sight as it currently exists, and this is important (and not just because I'm the one who's saying it).

If a soldier is seen by one alien, and then moves out of sight of that alien, does every other alien continue to have squad sight to that soldier throughout the next alien turn?

If this is the case, then a soldier that has been seen by any alien needs to remain in cover because they can potentially be fired out from any location on the map, particularly areas that have not been revealed yet because you don't know what is lurking there.

[Danny Pockets]

Lol I don't remember using that phrase but you certainly can take screenshots in game

.

I may have exaggerated slightly, it's hard to remember exactly. But you lol'd, so it's fine.

It's just like that time I made that really funny rape joke in court and then the judge had to let me off.

[StellarRat]

First of all, I've learned that if I want people to read my whole post, I should probably write smaller posts. But seriously, you guys, every word I write is as important as the one that came before it. Maybe even more important! (Well, no, probably only as important...).

No I wasn't sure and I addressed that in my post. I was facing Harriden's and so I'm not sure what their sight range is, and I don't know if they can target my soldiers out unrevealed areas of the maps, because they can see that far but my soldiers can't. Can anyone clarify this?

On the other hand, does anyone know how squad sight works exactly: specifically, if any alien has seen my soldier, does that mean that every alien can now target that soldier even when he he completely out of sight of the original alien that saw him?

This was a desert map without civilians, though, so it wasn't accidental fire that had been aimed at a civilian I couldn't see.

I can confirm that Chris has indeed said this, because he said it to me, in a wonderful dream that I had. We we're riding white horses, bareback, along a beach of jet black sand, set against a magnificent amber sunset...

But look here, and I'm sorry to repeat myself (even though repetition [is/] fun), but my question was really about the mechanics of squad sight as it currently exists, and this is important (and not just because I'm the one who's saying it).

If a soldier is seen by one alien, and then moves out of sight of that alien, does every other alien continue to have squad sight to that soldier throughout the next alien turn?

If this is the case, then a soldier that has been seen by any alien needs to remain in cover because they can potentially be fired out from any location on the map, particularly areas that have not been revealed yet because you don't know what is lurking there.

They shouldn't have sight to you if you move behind something and none of them can see you anymore. That's how it works for the human player, but it may be broken as far as the AI is concerned. My suggestion is post it as a bug if you believe that is what is happening.

[ThunderGr]

But look here, and I'm sorry to repeat myself (even though repetition [is/] fun), but my question was really about the mechanics of squad sight as it currently exists, and this is important (and not just because I'm the one who's saying it).

If a soldier is seen by one alien, and then moves out of sight of that alien, does every other alien continue to have squad sight to that soldier throughout the next alien turn?

If this is the case, then a soldier that has been seen by any alien needs to remain in cover because they can potentially be fired out from any location on the map, particularly areas that have not been revealed yet because you don't know what is lurking there.

Another alien spotting you at your new location sounds like the best explanation. Just because you got out of the line of sight of the first alien, does not mean the direction you headed is not known, you know. However, I do not know if the AI uses that information, yet.

That was the other half of my reply which gave an explanation of what might have happened. When you move out of sight of all aliens they have no sight to you any more, squad or otherwise. However, they also move during their turn and, while you might had assessed the location to be safe for your soldier(something very difficult to assess unless you have all flanks covered) the aliens may respot you and, very nicely, shoot at you during their turn. I do that to aliens all the time. They hide behind a rock so that I do not see them, but I move my flankers around and respot them, next turn. RIP Alien. Next time, retreat to a cover instead .

[Danny Pockets]

Ok, thank you Gentleman!

Yeah I really couldn't tell what was going on, but for now let's work on the assumption that I was simply spotted by a new alien. Like I say, this was from out of a still blacked area of the map, so the offending alien was at a quite reasonable distance from my soldier. But I believe Harridens (I think that's what their snipers are called, right?) have particularly long sight so let's take this as the simplest explanation.

Until next time!

[Mytheos]

First of all, I've learned that if I want people to read my whole post, I should probably write smaller posts. But seriously, you guys, every word I write is as important as the one that came before it. Maybe even more important! (Well, no, probably only as important...).

No I wasn't sure and I addressed that in my post. I was facing Harriden's and so I'm not sure what their sight range is, and I don't know if they can target my soldiers out unrevealed areas of the maps, because they can see that far but my soldiers can't. Can anyone clarify this?

On the other hand, does anyone know how squad sight works exactly: specifically, if any alien has seen my soldier, does that mean that every alien can now target that soldier even when he he completely out of sight of the original alien that saw him?

This was a desert map without civilians, though, so it wasn't accidental fire that had been aimed at a civilian I couldn't see.

I can confirm that Chris has indeed said this, because he said it to me, in a wonderful dream that I had. We we're riding white horses, bareback, along a beach of jet black sand, set against a magnificent amber sunset...

But look here, and I'm sorry to repeat myself (even though repetition [is/] fun), but my question was really about the mechanics of squad sight as it currently exists, and this is important (and not just because I'm the one who's saying it).

If a soldier is seen by one alien, and then moves out of sight of that alien, does every other alien continue to have squad sight to that soldier throughout the next alien turn?

If this is the case, then a soldier that has been seen by any alien needs to remain in cover because they can potentially be fired out from any location on the map, particularly areas that have not been revealed yet because you don't know what is lurking there.

You quoted me replying to someone else, I was replying to a quote by xcomnaut...just a heads up.

[Danny Pockets]

You quoted me replying to someone else, I was replying to a quote by xcomnaut...just a heads up.

I see.

Well, this isn't the first time I've been accused trying steal people's attention for myself. But, you know, we've just met, so that's kind of a bit rude of you, wouldn't you agree?

Nonetheless it did give me an opportunity to more clearly state the real point that I was driving at. Even though I did just go ahead and repeat it again by quoting someone else.

Maybe this is what my Mother means when she says I'm so obnoxiously difficult. Too my face, she says that. And on my birthday!

[Mytheos]

I see.

Well, this isn't the first time I've been accused trying steal people's attention for myself. But, you know, we've just met, so that's kind of a bit rude of you, wouldn't you agree?

Nonetheless it did give me an opportunity to more clearly state the real point that I was driving at. Even though I did just go ahead and repeat it again by quoting someone else.

Maybe this is what my Mother means when she says I'm so obnoxiously difficult. Too my face, she says that. And on my birthday!

I think you are misunderstanding me, I'm not sure why you are taking offense?

I was speaking with xcomnaut about the problem he was having, he described a situation, and I asked if he was sure the Aliens were shooting at him, or perhaps it they were shooting at civilians and they missed, causing the projectiles to come his way.

Then you made a post and said:

"First of all, I've learned that if I want people to read my whole post, I should probably write smaller posts. But seriously, you guys, every word I write is as important as the one that came before it. Maybe even more important! (Well, no, probably only as important...).

Then quoted my response to him saying - Are you SURE they are shooting at you by using squad sight?

They COULD be shooting at civilian within their sight range and simply missing, causing their projectiles to travel until something stops them...like unfortunately your soldiers.

And then continued your post and said - No I wasn't sure and I addressed that in my post.

So I am simply letting you know, because you seemed to be angry with me, saying people were TLDR your post, suggesting I did that....

And when I said - You quoted me replying to someone else, I was replying to a quote by xcomnaut...just a heads up.

That was the very first time I was speaking to you on this thread.

So I am just informing you that you read a post of mine, talking to someone else, and thought I was talking to you...which seemed to upset you.

So no need to get upset, you were just misunderstanding who I was talking to.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Mytheos

[Mytheos]

*sigh* It's 2:39am Mytheos...you're really tired, please dont try to explain this now, you are half asleep. Just wait til morning when you can articulate your thoughts...

Damn it, why can you not just let things go til morning....because I'm stubborn, you should know that by now, seeing as how you're me and all.

Yeah I know but....just be quiet and go to bed...fine whatever.

[Danny Pockets]

*sigh* It's 2:39am Mytheos...you're really tired, please dont try to explain this now, you are half asleep. Just wait til morning when you can articulate your thoughts...

Damn it, why can you not just let things go til morning....because I'm stubborn, you should know that by now, seeing as how you're me and all.

Yeah I know but....just be quiet and go to bed...fine whatever.

I had a good little chuckle to this.

Hopefully we're still not getting our wires crossed, but I'm thinking you've realised that most of what I've been writing is in jest?

I do like to kid.

Sorry if it caused you a bit of consternation. Actually, people taking me the wrong way has been a constant theme throughout my life. So it's probably my fault after all. That's what my Mum keeps telling me.

Oh and the tl:dr part was that I had a whole completely separate issue in the original post that no one addressed, but I think maybe it was an actual bug and I've reposted that second part in the bugs forum.

Until next time! Have a good night

Edited July 11, 2013 by Danny Pockets

[Mytheos]

@Danny Pockets

Ok 8-)

I wasnt sure if you felt I had offended you or if you were just joking.

I just wanted to make sure you understood that wasnt my intention.