Point blank firing misses???

[Shadeth]

OK, so I am am old school gamer, played a lot of the original X-COM and X-COM 2 TFTD.  In those games, the closer you were to the target the more likely you were to hit them shooting, and if you were standing right next to them, AKA point blank, you were pretty much guaranteed to hit them.  Yet... in this game, I have seen more than once where my soliders, and even the MARS robotic unit, got right up to something and the full auto missed 3 shots in a row!  This seems not only unrealistic but not balanced.  Sometimes the only way I defeated tougher opponents with lesser weapons in games was by strategic placement of my soldiers so that I get right up on them and blast them without a chance to miss. 

I am not playing Ironman thank God, but this felt so unfair that I had to just reload when it happened.  Can you all consider fixing it so you have 100% or even 99% chance to hit when right up against a unit?  To clarify also, there was no smoke on the unit I was shooting, nor my unit.

Second minor gripe, I only started to play this game but it seems that kneeling does not improve your aim accuracy and that seems weird too.  It did in other games, and it would in real life if you've ever shot a rifle, it is harder while standing.

[Novadea]

Yes the point blank aiming calculation could do with some work, standing next to the target with a shotgun and getting ~80% chance is just BS when in reality you couldn't miss without divine intervention... overall the current 45 degree misses etc. are kinda off putting and could be solved with a bit more refinement on the aiming calculations.

And yes I also agree that kneeling down should increase accuracy, I also found it very strange that the only use for it is for cover, or in special case you can shoot over a crouched dude if the shooter is behind him and standing.

Regarding that I'd like to add that not being able to shoot past teammates in adjacent squares freely regardless of stance seems kinda dumb. The squares are 1x1m or so at least, the soldiers have training, they should tell the teammate to get down etc. and not shoot before it's clear. No instead in this game they'll fire the whole burst straight at the back of the teammate standing next to them "you were in the line of fire" and not hit anything that was aimed at, after which the shot in the back character gets suppressed and kneels down out of the way.

[Mr.Xia]

Dont think i've encountered that point blank scenario at all, but yeah, kneeling should have given me an accuracy boost.

[Skitso]

4 hours ago, Shadeth said:

OK, so I am am old school gamer, played a lot of the original X-COM and X-COM 2 TFTD.  In those games, the closer you were to the target the more likely you were to hit them shooting, and if you were standing right next to them, AKA point blank, you were pretty much guaranteed to hit them.  Yet... in this game, I have seen more than once where my soliders, and even the MARS robotic unit, got right up to something and the full auto missed 3 shots in a row!  This seems not only unrealistic but not balanced.  Sometimes the only way I defeated tougher opponents with lesser weapons in games was by strategic placement of my soldiers so that I get right up on them and blast them without a chance to miss. 

I am not playing Ironman thank God, but this felt so unfair that I had to just reload when it happened.  Can you all consider fixing it so you have 100% or even 99% chance to hit when right up against a unit?  To clarify also, there was no smoke on the unit I was shooting, nor my unit.

Second minor gripe, I only started to play this game but it seems that kneeling does not improve your aim accuracy and that seems weird too.  It did in other games, and it would in real life if you've ever shot a rifle, it is harder while standing.

While the game is slow and turn based, the combat situation that it simulates is not. If you imagine each turn being a few seconds slice of a chaotic combat situation where soldiers and aliens run around, shooting and dodging, it's much easier to understand misses even from adjacent tiles.

Accept that especially your early game units and their equipment suck against unknown extraterrestrial enemies and many of them will die. It's how these games are, and you'll get your payback later.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Skitso

[Skyfire]

17 minutes ago, Skitso said:

While the game is slow and turn based, the combat situation that it simulates is not. If you imagine each turn being a few seconds slice of a chaotic combat situation where soldiers and aliens run around, shooting and dodging, it's much easier to understand misses even from adjacent tiles.

This. That soldier isn't shooting a stationary cardboard cutout at point blank range, he's in hand-to-hand combat with a seven-foot tall bipedal crocodile that's trying to rip off his face. 'Run up to point blank range and shoot' isn't a reliable tactic in real life - that's literally the entire reason that bayonets exist.

Secondly, if you have an 80% chance to hit with a shotgun, it's because you're using snap-shot (unless the soldier has ~30 aim) - i.e. rushing your shot as fast as possible. A 60+ aim soldier using normal shot with a shotgun does have a 100% chance to hit at point-blank range.

The game's in a pretty good spot already - use the right tool with a competent operator and don't cut corners, and you're guaranteed success. Remove any of those three and you might screw it up.

[Novadea]

E: Drunken post that might have had a point somewhere but can't remember it for my life so you'll have to do with this lame ass apology instead, sorry.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Novadea

[Novadea]

2 hours ago, Skyfire said:

A 60+ aim soldier using normal shot with a shotgun does have a 100% chance to hit at point-blank range.

Anyone that can operate a shotgun should have pretty much 100% hit chance at "point-blank" range. That's kinda the point of the weapon, just point in the general direction of the threat and shoot.

[Skyfire]

Video games and pop culture massively exaggerate the spread on a shotgun: it's not actually some magical device that completely removes the need to aim. The accepted rule of thumb seems to be 1 inch of spread per yard of distance traveled (a little less than 1 degree angle on the cone). A tile looks like roughly 1.5 yards, so at that range you have maybe a 2-inch wide shot pattern. That's a long way from 'just point in the general direction'.

But even so, lets run the numbers for what actually happens with that 80% hit chance above. In game, a shotgun fires three pellets, which we'll assume have independent hit chances.
With 3x 80% rolls, there's a 51.2% chance of three hits, a 38.4% chance of two hits, a 9.6% chance of one hit, and a 0.8% chance of zero hits.

So that's a roughly 90% chance to get most of your damage, and over a 99% chance to get some damage. That is "pretty much 100% hit chance" if hit is defined as 'get at least part of the pattern on target'.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Skyfire

[Mr.Xia]

There is always the legendary perception of the RNG demon, that a 95% hit chance miss has cemented the minds of most turn based games. Whilst you can consider the average hit chances across one entire scenario can be relatively even, players always hate that moment when that miss turns into a catastrophic failure, and that burns into their minds.

 

The argument for real time simulations past the turn-based system is fair, you should expect the fumble or streak of luck from time to time, however that is better understood in tabletop games when imagination plays king in the audiences minds.

When turn based games became video games especially single-player, perception of expected outcome is different, you expect the game to just work, that AI better not cheat, etc. It's hard to display that expected leniency on hit chance in turn based computer games when you dont see the chaos of it in real time.

 

I too am the guy who gets pissed when games had a 95% hard limit so no matter how much investment of accuracy I put into, I will by chance 'miss' because of it. But I think Xenonauts dont have it that harsh, you just need to invest in your guys for that gurantee, or being more body bags into the fight.

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Mr.Xia

[Shadeth]

Well, to be clear, my perspective on this is in part because I started playing this game right after playing a lot of X-Com 2: terror from the deep (Open Xcom version).  In that game, I sometimes ran into enemies I couldn't easily kill with my current weapons tech before they killed me, and one solution that works in that game, is just get right up to them (assuming they are out of reaction fire) and blast them in the face with pistols in 3 burst shot mode, and all shots hit.  Maybe that is an exploit??  I always just considered it a strategy, like they got close enough that they held the gun right up to their body and couldn't miss.

But even if you all say, humans make mistakes, combat is chaotic, OK sure...  but when I send in my MARS robot, a freaking robot, not a human who might have bad nerves or spaz out, and it somehow misses all three shots with it's machine gun standing right next to the alien, that was honestly some B.S.  And I promise you all it can happen, at least it did as of a day or two ago.  Not sure if they will adjust accuracy to account for range in the future or not.  I think at the least the accuracy should go way up that close for all weapons, even if it isn't 100%.  I'd prefer it was 100% but maybe that's just my perspective since I am used to that strategy from the ancient games.  There is definitely a risk getting that close to most enemies, so it seems balanced to me.  Also balanced if they can do it to you as well.

[Skitso]

43 minutes ago, Shadeth said:

Well, to be clear, my perspective on this is in part because I started playing this game right after playing a lot of X-Com 2: terror from the deep (Open Xcom version).  In that game, I sometimes ran into enemies I couldn't easily kill with my current weapons tech before they killed me, and one solution that works in that game, is just get right up to them (assuming they are out of reaction fire) and blast them in the face with pistols in 3 burst shot mode, and all shots hit.  Maybe that is an exploit??  I always just considered it a strategy, like they got close enough that they held the gun right up to their body and couldn't miss.

But even if you all say, humans make mistakes, combat is chaotic, OK sure...  but when I send in my MARS robot, a freaking robot, not a human who might have bad nerves or spaz out, and it somehow misses all three shots with it's machine gun standing right next to the alien, that was honestly some B.S.  And I promise you all it can happen, at least it did as of a day or two ago.  Not sure if they will adjust accuracy to account for range in the future or not.  I think at the least the accuracy should go way up that close for all weapons, even if it isn't 100%.  I'd prefer it was 100% but maybe that's just my perspective since I am used to that strategy from the ancient games.  There is definitely a risk getting that close to most enemies, so it seems balanced to me.  Also balanced if they can do it to you as well.

MARS is remote controlled by a human operator... 

[Pathfinder]

First:

The problem with accuracy in games is that it is done both by RNG, and by percentage of hit/miss. In fact, in reality, for a specific weapon, specific ammunition, specific weather and geolocation, you are GUARANTED to hit within specific geometric shape (usually a circular/ellipse). Such games as X1/X2, X-Com, JA, all kind of fallouts, and as well a lot of FPS/TPS are using only probability of hit at the target. You CAN'T get realistic outcome by this definition, so, drop the case, just enjoy playability you have.

Second:

Apart from robotic units (like MARS), - in reality - it is very, extremely, very possible, to miss a shot in close quarter combat when soldier is not very skilled (both physical, mental, and tactical). It could be improved for game purpose to scale hit probability at very close distances not linearly but let's say quadratic, or even more, based on soldiers few stats coupled together (accuracy, strength (above used up, not the absolute), morale, reflex).

Third:

It is not 1 to 1 scalability of speed, actions, ranges, energy. In that kind of games, ranges are (as you see it well) scaled very differently for shooting, throwing, moving, and buildings/facilities. In that case, it is possible to take as granted that 0 range to enemy is in fact point-blank, but at 1 range, could be already much further than those 1x1 m grid. The only ridiculous thing I can say about is range of pistol/shotgun - these should be much smaller, not longer than 2 or 3 tiles. Currently ranges of these weapons are like 1/5th range of sniper/machine-gun, which is far too much "gamey" and far too little "realistic". I know there is always some golden compromise, but that one should be addressed sooner or later. For pistols, I would as well add some very overpowering handguns (1 heavy handgun would be enough - in that case I would even recommend revolvers - it would add high flexibility of possibly combining multiple, different purpose ammunition into single revolver charge - but that would require much expanded ammunition mechanics, unfortunately) that are existing in reality, as these could in fact be very useful as the last resort weapon in such very close encounters.

 

Again, thanks for a great game!

Edited July 22, 2023 by Pathfinder

[Shadeth]

OK, one other thing, I haven't looked into all of the future weapons of this game, since I am trying to enjoy it, even knowing it is a work in progress and things are missing.  But, I do enjoy tactics, some of which might be closing the distance and either shooting point blank, or using a melee weapon for a sure kill.  I see there is a knife, but I have not tried to use it yet, will probably give that a shot at some point today.  In XCOM 2 there is a really strong late game melee weapon, https://www.ufopaedia.org/index.php/Heavy_Thermic_Lance, and I LOVED using that thing in tight quarters, so I am hoping there is some similarly strong melee weapon coming later in this game.

Right now, starting out, I aim for optimal strategy and tactics, and funny enough, I find that my newbie soldiers often have FAR better accuracy throwing a grenade or explosive on enemies than they do shooting them.  In fact, this has become part of my strategy, load up on grenades and lob them at enemies.  Only downside is it destroys corpses and equipment, but hey if it helps me get through certain missions might as well?  I don't know if the throwing accuracy is bugged or I'm just lucky, but I almost never have a bad throw, compared to countless shot misses that looked like easy shots.  The fact grenades explode in the middle of your turn is fun, but perhaps OP I dare say?  In older games, they would only explode at the end of your turn, which made using them more problematic and less strong. 

I also find the smoke grenades to be really OP due to their stun effect and actually more useful for capturing live aliens than the stun weapons you later develop, but that is another topic.

 

[DaviddesJ]

I’ve seen a lot of movies where people try to shoot other people from just a few feet away and miss.

One square in this game is, what, 12 feet? People miss a lot at that distance, when their target is not perfectly stationary.

[Mr.Xia]

59 minutes ago, DaviddesJ said:

I’ve seen a lot of movies where people try to shoot other people from just a few feet away and miss.

One square in this game is, what, 12 feet? People miss a lot at that distance, when their target is not perfectly stationary.

You are absolutely correct, this video will illustrate the most realistic demonstration of a usual combat scenario in X2.

 

 

[DaviddesJ]

Now we just need the Naked Gun mod for Xenonauts.

[Wolfone88]

To be honest, accuracy with a firearm should be much lower in melee range because there are much higher chances for the target to remove itself from the line of fire by interfering with the barrel. In police shooting courses they teach to be at least at 3 meters from any subject's hands when you draw your gun

[Judy]

The biggest problem i have is that the stun weapons to capture an alien has only 3 shot!!!! And ammo weighs a lot in the beginning for a shield guy.  To get my first stun, I had 3 guys shoot with stunners at range 1-3 but 75% missed.  1 clip only has 3 shots so next turn they were basically out of ammo.  Laser weapons only have a few shots per clip too.