Dropship Mission Storage

[cman1983]

8 minutes ago, Raffik said:

touchy? Like I was touched personally and offended you mean? Au contraire my friend, I am not offended or touchy at all, I was trying to explain my logic and standpoint only.

Yeh a can see that but it's not just you ma man and some people are slower in uptake and tryin to work out other's speach and lingo haha wasn't aimed at any in particular just urs was the 1 I clicked on for reply no offence meant and  other people's logic ma differ ma comrade in arms 

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

30 minutes ago, cman1983 said:

A tad touchy are you not no 1 is saying you can't use it's a chat forum and we just running what we feel are required and no 1 is saying your wrong either jees we trying to bash heads together and give the developers some outside thot and feed back.

 

Why on thees forums does alot of people take offence to others suggestions and thoughts I don't but it's a chat forum for developing our game that we have all bought and are entitled to say our thoughts feelings without arguments getting started  

Come guys let's be sensible 

Maybe some nuance has been lost because of using written messages here, but for what it's worth I didn't think there was anything out of hand with Raffik's message. It seemed reasonable and level-headed. 

[Raffik]

49 minutes ago, cman1983 said:

Yeh a can see that but it's not just you ma man and some people are slower in uptake and tryin to work out other's speach and lingo haha wasn't aimed at any in particular just urs was the 1 I clicked on for reply no offence meant and  other people's logic ma differ ma comrade in arms 

no offense taken my friend, you raised a valid point - discussing about play styles or opinions does not bring much to the collective effort. Lets focus on bringing ideas forward, just as @Ogilvy the Astronomersuggested with his summary of the ideas.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Raffik

[Komandos]

3 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

The issue: players can overload their soldiers, then dump excess equipment on the dropship floor during turn 1. This gives plenty of equipment and can unbalance the game.

I don't see any problems (for the balance of the game) in the fact that players can overload their soldiers, and then drop additional equipment on the floor, during the first round.

I see the problem in the fact that the player cannot take the necessary equipment without this method.

 

3 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

1.       Do nothing. Accept that this is how some players want to play the game.

Players want to be able to take more equipment with them, and this opportunity should be given to players (preferably in a way that is more convenient for players).

3 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

2.       Make it so soldiers can only fly in a dropship if they’re not carrying over their ability. Soldiers can still carry too much on the battlefield but with TU penalties, as is the case currently.

The player on the base has an unlimited supply of equipment. Why, with such resources, should a player save equipment consumption on the battlefield?

3 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

3.       Give each dropship a weight capacity that includes all the equipment carried onboard.

At a given time, the player can load into the plane: either 9 soldiers; or 8 soldiers and one tank (combat platform). The combat platform is a heavy thing and is capable of destroying walls with its weight. At the end of the game, the player will have heavy armor capable of breaking obstacles with its weight. And planes should easily lift all these heavy objects into the sky. If you create restrictions (limit) on the carrying capacity of aircraft, then with a tank (combat platform) and heavy armor on soldiers, planes may not take off at all.

 

3 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

a.       Give dropships a storage unit that a player can fill and Xenonauts can access during a mission. This unit could come as default, or be a manufacturing project.

Yes

[Jorlem]

7 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

I think that's a fair opinion. But what would stop a player overloading their soliders just to drop kit in the dropship floor and filling a dropship locker?

Lack of need? People overload soldiers and drop the stuff in the dropship because they feel they need the additional supplies. Provide an inventory in the dropship, and that need vanishes because it has been filled. You don't usually need that much extra stuff, after all.

 

 

[Jorlem]

7 hours ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

I think that's a fair opinion. But what would stop a player overloading their soliders just to drop kit in the dropship floor and filling a dropship locker?

Lack of need? People overload soldiers and drop the stuff in the dropship because they feel they need the additional supplies. Provide an inventory in the dropship, and that need vanishes because it has been filled. You don't usually need that much extra stuff, after all.

 

Edit:

Can't figure out how to delete the double post, sorry.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Jorlem

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

1 hour ago, Komandos said:

I don't see any problems (for the balance of the game) in the fact that players can overload their soldiers, and then drop additional equipment on the floor, during the first round.

This is interesting, and I think gets to the bottom of the issue. We just don't agree on being able to bring whatever equipment affecting balance: I think it does, you don't. I don't see that either of us will convince the other, but luckily that's OK as it's for the devs to decide whether this is an issue worth addressing or not 

1 hour ago, Komandos said:

I see the problem in the fact that the player cannot take the necessary equipment without this method.

I definitely disagree here. I've played for 24 hours and never felt the need to overburden my soldiers in the way you do. It never even occurred to me. On the contrary, I rarely found that the weight limit was restrictive.

 

1 hour ago, Komandos said:

Players want to be able to take more equipment with them, and this opportunity should be given to players (preferably in a way that is more convenient for players).

It seems that some players want this. If the devs agree, then it does indeed make sense to have a method that's convenient. The dropship locker and MARS storage secondary "weapon" seem like fun ideas.

1 hour ago, Komandos said:

The player on the base has an unlimited supply of equipment. Why, with such resources, should a player save equipment consumption on the battlefield?

It's not about saving equipment consumption on the battlefield, but rather making the battlefield too easy if you can take whatever equipment and in whatever quantities you want. This is back to our fundamental disagreement. I appreciate that you don't think that this is an issue.

1 hour ago, Komandos said:

At a given time, the player can load into the plane: either 9 soldiers; or 8 soldiers and one tank (combat platform). The combat platform is a heavy thing and is capable of destroying walls with its weight. At the end of the game, the player will have heavy armor capable of breaking obstacles with its weight. And planes should easily lift all these heavy objects into the sky. If you create restrictions (limit) on the carrying capacity of aircraft, then with a tank (combat platform) and heavy armor on soldiers, planes may not take off at all.

This is what I was saying about internal game logic taking precedent over real-life logic if it makes for a better game. I'd have no problem with the dropship having a capacity of 9 units, including up to one MARS, and a separate cargo hold with a capacity of x kg. Even if that wouldn't make sense in real life. I expect most players would accept this without thinking too much, but if it needed justification then just say that the dropships have these limits so they can stay balanced in the air. 

I'm going to exit this now as unless anyone has any radical new ideas I think there are enough viewpoints and suggestions in the thread to help the devs make any changes they feel are necessary. 

[Raffik]

44 minutes ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

This is what I was saying about internal game logic taking precedent over real-life logic if it makes for a better game. I'd have no problem with the dropship having a capacity of 9 units, including up to one MARS, and a separate cargo hold with a capacity of x kg. Even if that wouldn't make sense in real life. I expect most players would accept this without thinking too much, but if it needed justification then just say that the dropships have these limits so they can stay balanced in the air. 

Did you have something like this in mind perhaps? Found this suggestion in the X2 Discord.  Add another bar, that would show the capacity for extra equipment the dropship could take..

 

[cman1983]

4 hours ago, Raffik said:

no offense taken my friend, you raised a valid point - discussing about play styles or opinions does not bring much to the collective effort. Lets focus on bringing ideas forward, just as @Ogilvy the Astronomersuggested with his summary of the ideas.

Exactly buddy ps av went back to x1 for a long war haha can't mind how to spin screen and loosing basicly ratio of 1 man a mission ooft rusty

[cman1983]

2 hours ago, Jorlem said:

Lack of need? People overload soldiers and drop the stuff in the dropship because they feel they need the additional supplies. Provide an inventory in the dropship, and that need vanishes because it has been filled. You don't usually need that much extra stuff, after all.

 

 

But I think that's what we all agree on if a soldier was humping all that then there stamina would low and probably make them tired which would mean less attention on battlefield and less accuracy and deciscion making etc would be to pot 

[Komandos]

1 hour ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

This is what I was saying about internal game logic taking precedent over real-life logic if it makes for a better game.

The player overloads his soldiers and then drops the equipment on the floor in the first round, not at all to worsen the game. On the contrary: the player is thus trying to make the game better for himself, and in order to be able to enjoy the gameplay more.

This is what I was saying about internal game logic taking precedent over real-life logic if it makes for a better game.

[DaviddesJ]

It seems to me that the dropship can easily carry 10x more ammunition than you could possibly use during a single fight without it appreciably affecting the range or performance of the ship. I would personally say that there just shouldn't be any limits on ammunition. The scenarios could be constructed so that constantly returning to the dropship for resupplies has other downsides.

[Komandos]

4 hours ago, DaviddesJ said:

The scenarios could be constructed so that constantly returning to the dropship for resupplies has other downsides.

 I could understand people who are against the player taking extra equipment with him, as this will help the player win more tactical battles (will upset the balance of the game). However, the balance of the game is such that the player playing the game for the second time (the player who knows the game) wins all tactical battles even without additional equipment.

[DaviddesJ]

2 hours ago, Komandos said:

However, the balance of the game is such that the player playing the game for the second time (the player who knows the game) wins all tactical battles even without additional equipment.

That just depends on what difficulty levels are implemented.

[Komandos]

1 hour ago, DaviddesJ said:

That just depends on what difficulty levels are implemented.

The aliens walk alone.

Xenonauts walk in a tight group of 9 soldiers.

Therefore: when meeting 1-2 aliens with 9 xenonauts, the xenonauts will make 4-9 times more shots than the aliens.

Thus: an experienced player, on a large map, is able to defeat an opponent who is 4-9 times more numerous than the player.

Since the size of the cards is small, the density of aliens up to 40 units per location (Xenonauts 1) allows 10 units of the player to make more shots at aliens (in total) than aliens are able to shoot at the player's soldiers.

Since the armor strength and weapon strength of the aliens are higher (the aliens require more hits from the player than the aliens need to destroy the player's soldiers), I reduce the allowable alien density from 40 units to 30 units. Thus, (with the most approximate calculations) it turns out that in all missions (tasks) where the density of aliens is less than 30 units per location, an experienced player always wins. (Xenonauts 1)

At the same time, the player will lose at least half of his soldiers. (Xenonauts 1)

The most difficult will be only the first rounds of the battle, when the density of the aliens will be maximum.

In the game Xenonauts 2 there are no missions (tasks) in which the density of aliens exceeds 30 units per location.

Therefore, there are no missions (tasks) in the game Xenonauts 2 that an experienced player would not surely win.

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

17 hours ago, Raffik said:

Did you have something like this in mind perhaps? Found this suggestion in the X2 Discord.  Add another bar, that would show the capacity for extra equipment the dropship could take..

 

I mean more like this for my bonus idea a (give dropships a storage unit that a player can fill and Xenonauts can access during a mission. This unit could come as default, or be a manufacturing project):

The size of locker and weight capacity should be dictated by gameplay balance. (The one in my screenshot is probably OP). The contents of this dropship storage locker would be in addition to the equipment that the Xenonauts are carrying on their person, and could be accessed on the battlefield by soldiers in the dropship.

My personal preference would be to have this, and in addition not allow overburdened soldiers onto the dropship. This is possible solution #2 (make it so soldiers can only fly in a dropship if they’re not carrying over their ability. Soldiers can still carry too much on the battlefield but with TU penalties, as is the case currently):

If players really want loads of kit then there's also bonus idea b (add a storage unit as a secondary weapon option for the MARS. This could make it like a pack mule). I won't make a screenshot for that!

That's how I'd try changing things anyway, I appreciate there are other viewpoints!

[Komandos]

1 hour ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

 

 

If such a brave guy is not allowed to fight just because he took too many weapons with him, then I wouldn't be surprised if the level of panic in the game starts to rise too quickly.

 

 

This is the only way a real warrior should look before a fight.

[cman1983]

Hahaha

[DaviddesJ]

7 hours ago, Komandos said:

The aliens walk alone.

Xenonauts walk in a tight group of 9 soldiers.

Therefore: when meeting 1-2 aliens with 9 xenonauts, the xenonauts will make 4-9 times more shots than the aliens.

Thus: an experienced player, on a large map, is able to defeat an opponent who is 4-9 times more numerous than the player.

First, there's no reason aliens can't be in groups.

Secondly, when there's time pressure, the player can't necessarily take this slow, methodical approach.