Dropship Mission Storage

[Komandos]

32 minutes ago, DaviddesJ said:

 

No, I don't. I like the challenge of scarcity.

I also like it if there are tasks with a shortage of ammunition in the game. But when you have boundlessly huge ammunition depots on your Base, and the player does not have the right to take everything he considers necessary for any task - such restrictions seem artificial. If the developers want to add difficulties to me in the game, then it's better to place more enemies in the location than to deprive me of tools and the opportunity to use the tactics that I like best.

[cman1983]

4 minutes ago, Komandos said:

I also like it if there are tasks with a shortage of ammunition in the game. But when you have boundlessly huge ammunition depots on your Base, and the player does not have the right to take everything he considers necessary for any task - such restrictions seem artificial. If the developers want to add difficulties to me in the game, then it's better to place more enemies in the location than to deprive me of tools and the opportunity to use the tactics that I like best.

A bit harsh but prob fair 

[doubleskulls]

9 hours ago, Komandos said:

many players will use cheats and mods

Which the base game should not really account for. 

I'm not even sure that overloading and dropping equipment isn't that unrealistic. There are plenty of historical instances where overloaded troops were sent into battle, just to discard excess equipment immediately prior to engagement. 

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

Here’s a summary, as I see it.

The issue: players can overload their soldiers, then dump excess equipment on the dropship floor during turn 1. This gives plenty of equipment and can unbalance the game.

Possible solutions:

1.       Do nothing. Accept that this is how some players want to play the game.

2.       Make it so soldiers can only fly in a dropship if they’re not carrying over their ability. Soldiers can still carry too much on the battlefield but with TU penalties, as is the case currently.

3.       Give each dropship a weight capacity that includes all the equipment carried onboard.

 

In addition, there are two bonus ideas:

a.       Give dropships a storage unit that a player can fill and Xenonauts can access during a mission. This unit could come as default, or be a manufacturing project.

b.       Add a storage unit as a secondary weapon option for the MARS. This could make it like a pack mule.

 

Personally, I’d go for solution 2 and bonus ideas a and b. I think this combination is simple, intuitive, but gives the opportunity for different playstyles without unbalancing the game.

[cman1983]

Just now, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

Here’s a summary, as I see it.

The issue: players can overload their soldiers, then dump excess equipment on the dropship floor during turn 1. This gives plenty of equipment and can unbalance the game.

Possible solutions:

1.       Do nothing. Accept that this is how some players want to play the game.

2.       Make it so soldiers can only fly in a dropship if they’re not carrying over their ability. Soldiers can still carry too much on the battlefield but with TU penalties, as is the case currently.

3.       Give each dropship a weight capacity that includes all the equipment carried onboard.

 

In addition, there are two bonus ideas:

a.       Give dropships a storage unit that a player can fill and Xenonauts can access during a mission. This unit could come as default, or be a manufacturing project.

b.       Add a storage unit as a secondary weapon option for the MARS. This could make it like a pack mule.

 

Personally, I’d go for solution 2 and bonus ideas a and b. I think this combination is simple, intuitive, but gives the opportunity for different playstyles without unbalancing the game.

Interesting I'd prefer option 3 with with a and/b but that's my style n preference 

[Komandos]

4 minutes ago, doubleskulls said:

I'm not even sure that overloading and dropping equipment isn't that unrealistic. There are plenty of historical instances where overloaded troops were sent into battle, just to discard excess equipment immediately prior to engagement. 

Naturally. No one during the battle sits in the trenches with these huge backpacks on their backs, but leaves them in an armored vehicle or on the ground.

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

9 minutes ago, cman1983 said:

Interesting I'd prefer option 3 with with a and/b but that's my style n preference 

I think that would work too. The reason I'd go for option 2 is that I think it's a bit easier to understand. When you're equipping your soldiers for the dropship, if you go over their weight capacity there would be a message saying "Over weight capacity, soldier cannot board the dropship" or similar. It's immediate and obvious. With option 3 there would need to be another readout somewhere tracking the total weight for the dropship. People might also wonder if they could take fewer soldiers but more equipment. But option 3 could definitely still work. I think they're all valid choices and it's down to style and preference, as you say.

[cman1983]

Yeh that's a true squad army picture have a look at your special forces guys as that's apparently what our xenonauts should be as the next step up from regular army

[cman1983]

Just now, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

I think that would work too. The reason I'd go for option 2 is that I think it's a bit easier to understand. When you're equipping your soldiers for the dropship, if you go over their weight capacity there would be a message saying "Over weight capacity, soldier cannot board the dropship" or similar. It's immediate and obvious. With option 3 there would need to be another readout somewhere tracking the total weight for the dropship. People might also wonder if they could take fewer soldiers but more equipment. But option 3 could definitely still work. I think they're all valid choices and it's down to style and preference, as you say.

And absolutely bud iv already mention don't if in this or in another blog that we should have atleast 2 reserves as back up in vessel and only get to be used if squad goes below say 3 

[Komandos]

44 minutes ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

The issue: players can overload their soldiers, then dump excess equipment on the dropship floor during turn 1. This gives plenty of equipment and can unbalance the game.

What balance in the game can this upset? The balance in which the player must kill one alien with one grenade, and the second with one burst from a machine gun (and nothing else)? If the player takes more equipment with him, he will have the opportunity to kill two aliens with either two grenades; or two bursts from a machine gun; or one grenade and one burst from a machine gun. How can this upset the balance of the game?

I understand that the developers want to create difficulties on the battlefield that the player's soldiers will overcome. But it seems to me that it is better to create difficulties by increasing the capabilities of the enemy, rather than limiting the capabilities of the player's soldiers.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Komandos

[Jorlem]

17 minutes ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

I think that would work too. The reason I'd go for option 2 is that I think it's a bit easier to understand. When you're equipping your soldiers for the dropship, if you go over their weight capacity there would be a message saying "Over weight capacity, soldier cannot board the dropship" or similar. It's immediate and obvious. With option 3 there would need to be another readout somewhere tracking the total weight for the dropship. People might also wonder if they could take fewer soldiers but more equipment. But option 3 could definitely still work. I think they're all valid choices and it's down to style and preference, as you say.

I'm not a fan of there being a hard cap on the carry capacity, I very much prefer the current soft cap. If there must be a hard cap, I think it should be set somewhat higher than the carry capacity soft cap. That way you aren't blocked if a grenade or ammo pack puts you just one or two over the weight capacity.

 

Honestly though, I think the idea of a limited storage locker on the dropship that you can fill with what resupplies you think you'll need is much better than hard capping soldiers' weight/carry capacity.

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

7 minutes ago, Jorlem said:

I'm not a fan of there being a hard cap on the carry capacity, I very much prefer the current soft cap. If there must be a hard cap, I think it should be set somewhat higher than the carry capacity soft cap. That way you aren't blocked if a grenade or ammo pack puts you just one or two over the weight capacity.

 

Honestly though, I think the idea of a limited storage locker on the dropship that you can fill with what resupplies you think you'll need is much better than hard capping soldiers' weight/carry capacity.

I think that's a fair opinion. But what would stop a player overloading their soliders just to drop kit in the dropship floor and filling a dropship locker?

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

15 minutes ago, Komandos said:

What balance in the game can this upset? Tota, in which the player must kill one alien with one grenade, and the second with one burst from a machine gun (and nothing more). If the player takes more equipment with him, he will have the opportunity to kill two aliens with either two grenades; or two bursts from a machine gun; or one grenade and one burst from a machine gun. How can this upset the balance of the game?

There are a few examples that spring to mind. Maybe a player drops assault shields all over the dropship floor, and just collects a new one whenever their original breaks. Or they fill their soldiers' inventories with lots of large, heavy modules, and run to the dropship to get any extra equipment they need when a specific situation crops up, e.g. lots of grenades. It wouldn't be how I'd personally like to play the game, mind you! Consider that the whole concept of items having sizes and weights is so that you the player need to make tactical decisions; and to prevent soldiers becoming OP.

 

18 minutes ago, Komandos said:

I understand that the developers want to create difficulties on the battlefield that the player's soldiers will overcome. But it seems to me that it is better to create difficulties by increasing the capabilities of the enemy, rather than limiting the capabilities of the player's soldiers.

I see what you're saying about increasing the capabilities of the enemy. If you follow that logic to its conclusion, why have any soldier limits at all? Why not give them infinite equipment (as dropping kit all over the dropship floor is heading toward), and just increase the number of enemies accordingly? Some people might prefer that, but it does't really appeal to me personally.

[Komandos]

What's wrong if a soldier takes into battle not two grenades, but four, and leaves a backpack with additional grenades on the floor of the transport? How can this spoil the balance of power in a game where aliens are able to win only with the help of numbers and endless reinforcements?

[Komandos]

37 minutes ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

I see what you're saying about increasing the capabilities of the enemy. If you follow that logic to its conclusion, why have any soldier limits at all? Why not give them infinite equipment (as dropping kit all over the dropship floor is heading toward), and just increase the number of enemies accordingly? Some people might prefer that, but it does't really appeal to me personally.

You mix the concepts of "limit" and "give to the player" into one pile. If the player cannot throw an additional box of grenades into the helicopter (Following the example of how a soldier can do this in reality, wanting to take more grenades with him), then this refers specifically to restrictions, and not to obtaining unnatural opportunities.

It looks something like this: if I made a remark for you, "the fact that a unit does not have the ability to move at all looks unnatural," and you would answer me, "if a unit is given an unlimited limit of movement, then it looks more unnatural."

It's not that aircraft should have the same unlimited warehouse as a military base.

The point is that aircraft should also have inventory.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Komandos

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

7 minutes ago, Komandos said:

What's wrong if a soldier takes into battle not two grenades, but four, and leaves a backpack with additional grenades on the floor of the transport? How can this spoil the balance of power in a game where aliens are able to win only with the help of numbers and endless reinforcements?

To clarify, I think it's OK to have some extra equipment on the dropship if that's what players want to do -- hence bonus idea a, mentioned earlier. But allowing every solider to overload and then drop equipment on the dropship floor feels more like an exploit than intentional gameplay design. With a dropship locker you could more carefully control how much extra equipment is bought along.

It doesn't sound like you think there should be any limits on how much equipment can be bought into battle, instead providing balance by altering the number / lethality of the aliens. This isn't personally how I'd do things, but it is an approach that could work -- hence my proposed solution option #1, which is to do nothing and keep things as they are.

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

6 minutes ago, Komandos said:

You mix the concepts of "limit" and "give to the player" into one pile. If the player cannot throw an additional box of grenades into the helicopter (as a soldier can afford in reality), then this refers specifically to restrictions, and not to obtaining unnatural opportunities.

It looks something like this: if I made a remark for you, "the fact that a unit does not have the ability to move at all looks unnatural," and you would answer me, "if a unit is given an unlimited limit of movement, then it looks more unnatural."

It's not that aircraft should have the same unlimited warehouse as a military base.

The point is that aircraft should also have inventory.

I'm not quite sure what you mean here, but in any case lots of interesting points have been made and the devs can decide what, if anything, they'd like to change!

[Komandos]

2 minutes ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

But allowing every solider to overload and then drop equipment on the dropship floor feels more like an exploit than intentional gameplay design.

This is a real tactical device.

 

 

If any tactical technique that gives a tactical advantage is prohibited from being used, then what is the meaning of tactics and the "tactical constructor" that is the game?

[Raffik]

1 hour ago, Ogilvy the Astronomer said:

Here’s a summary, as I see it.

The issue: players can overload their soldiers, then dump excess equipment on the dropship floor during turn 1. This gives plenty of equipment and can unbalance the game.

Possible solutions:

1.       Do nothing. Accept that this is how some players want to play the game.

2.       Make it so soldiers can only fly in a dropship if they’re not carrying over their ability. Soldiers can still carry too much on the battlefield but with TU penalties, as is the case currently.

3.       Give each dropship a weight capacity that includes all the equipment carried onboard.

 

In addition, there are two bonus ideas:

a.       Give dropships a storage unit that a player can fill and Xenonauts can access during a mission. This unit could come as default, or be a manufacturing project.

b.       Add a storage unit as a secondary weapon option for the MARS. This could make it like a pack mule.

 

Personally, I’d go for solution 2 and bonus ideas a and b. I think this combination is simple, intuitive, but gives the opportunity for different playstyles without unbalancing the game.

Thank you.

A lot has been said for this topic and having an overview is helpful. I personally would go either for 2 or 3 and b in the bonuses.

[Raffik]

3 minutes ago, Komandos said:

This is a real tactical device.

 

 

If any tactical technique that gives a tactical advantage is prohibited from being used, then what is the meaning of tactics and the "tactical constructor" that is the game?

IRL those backpacks are not meant to be used during combat, as it makes the soldiers ineffective. As soon as a combat patrol takes place, the lighter the better, as mobility is key. Those full gears are full of food and various equipment, that support the soldier during multiple day missions/deployments.

If we use the same logic on X2, it has missions, that are relatively  short and quick to resolve, so no extensive equipment would be used during combat mission.

Overstocking soldiers realy feels like an exploit in my eyes too, just like @Ogilvy the Astronomer said before.

But it does not mean, that it cannot be used, if you like such play style and the game does not prohibit it 

I believe, that Ogilvy did a good job to sum up the ideas, that came up in this thread and we can only hope, that @Chris and the devs will take inspiration from it and implement some of it into the game.

[Komandos]

2 minutes ago, Raffik said:

IRL those backpacks are not meant to be used during combat, as it makes the soldiers ineffective.

That is why soldiers drop backpacks with large reserves before the battle. And the command never sends 8 soldiers into battle with a limited supply of equipment, having the resources and the ability to send 16-24 or more.

I know that the developers are trying to come up with difficulties for the player that the player will have to overcome. But it is not necessary to add these difficulties to every mission, and especially in those missions where the player has every right to prepare well for the task and take everything he needs with him.

[Raffik]

4 minutes ago, Komandos said:

And the command never sends 8 soldiers into battle with a limited supply of equipment, having the resources and the ability to send 16-24 or more.

And that is why the soldiers have backpacks to carry only the needed gear, not more to not be overloaded during combat. No soldier carries more to dump it on the ground when a  firefight starts and return to it during combat. That is real life. The game is not.

With the same logic, the soldier in the game would have to drop his full backpack and be without spare ammo or additional armor plates in combat.

6 minutes ago, Komandos said:

I know that the developers are trying to come up with difficulties for the player that the player will have to overcome. But it is not necessary to add these difficulties to every mission, and especially in those missions where the player has every right to prepare well for the task and take everything he needs with him.

Right. The player has full right to prepare well given the possibilities in the game. Which is the backpack storage space and the weight allowance of a soldier. Overloading the soldiers is an exploit of the game mmechanic. Again, as I said before, if not restricted, you are free to use it a much as you like.

[Ogilvy the Astronomer]

3 hours ago, Komandos said:

 

This is a real tactical device.

Whether or not it can happen in reality doesn't matter much -- this is a game about shooting aliens after all! What's fun and relatively balanced gameplay-wise comes first, and then you fit that into the game's internal worldbuilding logic -- or change the lore to accommodate the new ideas. There are no photos of fighter jets shooting down UFOs in real life, but I'm guessing you don't object to that in the game.

I'm having trouble understanding your points, so here's something you could do to help me. I'll copy out my suggestion summary again. Could you please state how you'd change it? Maybe add in a possible solution #4, or bonus idea #c? Or are you saying that you don't think that the issue as I've written it is actually a problem; in which case would you support solution #1? I just want clarity on what you're proposing.

###

The issue: players can overload their soldiers, then dump excess equipment on the dropship floor during turn 1. This gives plenty of equipment and can unbalance the game.

Possible solutions:

1.       Do nothing. Accept that this is how some players want to play the game.

2.       Make it so soldiers can only fly in a dropship if they’re not carrying over their ability. Soldiers can still carry too much on the battlefield but with TU penalties, as is the case currently.

3.       Give each dropship a weight capacity that includes all the equipment carried onboard.

 

In addition, there are two bonus ideas:

a.       Give dropships a storage unit that a player can fill and Xenonauts can access during a mission. This unit could come as default, or be a manufacturing project.

b.       Add a storage unit as a secondary weapon option for the MARS. This could make it like a pack mule.

[cman1983]

3 hours ago, Raffik said:

Right. The player has full right to prepare well given the possibilities in the game. Which is the backpack storage space and the weight allowance of a soldier. Overloading the soldiers is an exploit of the game mmechanic. Again, as I said before, if not restricted, you are free to use it a much as you like.

A tad touchy are you not no 1 is saying you can't use it's a chat forum and we just running what we feel are required and no 1 is saying your wrong either jees we trying to bash heads together and give the developers some outside thot and feed back.

 

Why on thees forums does alot of people take offence to others suggestions and thoughts I don't but it's a chat forum for developing our game that we have all bought and are entitled to say our thoughts feelings without arguments getting started  

Come guys let's be sensible 

[Raffik]

3 minutes ago, cman1983 said:

A tad touchy are you not no 1 is saying you can't use it's a chat forum and we just running what we feel are required and no 1 is saying your wrong either jees we trying to bash heads together and give the developers some outside thot and feed back.

 

Why on thees forums does alot of people take offence to others suggestions and thoughts I don't but it's a chat forum for developing our game that we have all bought and are entitled to say our thoughts feelings without arguments getting started  

Come guys let's be sensible 

touchy? Like I was touched personally and offended you mean? Au contraire my friend, I am not offended or touchy at all, I was trying to explain my logic and standpoint only.