Abduction mission suggestion(s)

[Ufomeister]

Hi there,

I love Xenonauts 2 so far and think it's a nice improvement over the first one but those abduction missions just annoy me to hell
Not sure if I'm the only one who dislikes them that much but in my humble opinion, it's quite boring to just rush to 5 abduction tubes and open them.

It'd be awesome if the player had to recover unconscious civilians from the tubes and then carry them to the Dropship with a stretcher (which would have to be carried by two soldiers) or maybe, a bit of a more simple method, by putting the unconscious civilians into a soldier's inventory.

While carrying a civilian, it'd only be possible to use the secondary weapon; or the main gun with a heavy accuracy handicap.

That way, the suspense would increase enormously (in my humble opinion) because, not only would you have to protect the soldier/soldiers who is/are carrying the civilian but also be short on one or two soldiers because they'd be busy carrying the unconscious civilian to the dropship - it would be kind of a similar approach to the data stick missions but I think, it'd make me care for/about those civilians a bit more than in the current abduction missions.

...plus, maybe you could add some benefits, like getting some intel with each rescued civilian - for example, the civilian could tell you how the aliens are operating during their missions which could make future missions for the player a bit easier or something like that.

 

[Chris]

So I guess my question to you is why you're happy with 5 abduction tubes, rather than pressing for the full 10? Are you not aware of the rewards for doing so (Alenium + Alloys), or are they not high enough to make it feel worthwhile?

Personally I think they work quite well in their current form, other than maybe the time limit being a turn too short. Being able to carry civilians around would require a bunch of extra animations and code which probably represents dev time better spent elsewhere, but I also think people would find it annoying to have multiple soldiers disabled due to having to carry civilians around.

It might be possible to add something basic to encourage looking after the rescued civilians, like giving the region -1 Panic for each surviving civilian at the end of the mission. However that ultimately goes back to my original question, because if resource rewards aren't enough to make the mission interesting then a Panic reduction probably won't be either?

[Alienkiller]

I like that Missions, because they bring in picancy in the Game. In the new XCOM-Series / Phoenix Point such Missions make the Game 1Million Times more interessting then all Predecessers of that Gerne before. That Missions with Limiters are a must have in such Games. It don´t need much of them.

Sadly the UFO ET-Series don´t have such Gruond-Missions yet, which would bring more picancy too in that Series. But therefore it have special UFO-Swarms with rewards (Payment & rare Artefacts), if you manage to shoot down the Swarm-Leader (Payment) and recover the UFO (Artifacts). In UFO 2 ET f. e. I had such Swarms in 1 Year and 8 Months up to my last Save there 5 or 6 Times.

Exactly that Missions / Features make such Games interessting, esp. if they are Hardcoded integrated and show up unexpected from time to time.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Alienkiller

[Ufomeister]

3 hours ago, Chris said:

So I guess my question to you is why you're happy with 5 abduction tubes, rather than pressing for the full 10? Are you not aware of the rewards for doing so (Alenium + Alloys), or are they not high enough to make it feel worthwhile?

Personally I think they work quite well in their current form, other than maybe the time limit being a turn too short. Being able to carry civilians around would require a bunch of extra animations and code which probably represents dev time better spent elsewhere, but I also think people would find it annoying to have multiple soldiers disabled due to having to carry civilians around.

It might be possible to add something basic to encourage looking after the rescued civilians, like giving the region -1 Panic for each surviving civilian at the end of the mission. However that ultimately goes back to my original question, because if resource rewards aren't enough to make the mission interesting then a Panic reduction probably won't be either?

In my humble opinion, 5 abduction tubes are enough to keep going - any more of them don't really feel rewarding to me but maybe that's just how I see things

I still think it'd be awesome and fun if you could rescue abducted civilians in more than one way - even during normal missions.

Just imagine, it'd open up possibilities for recruiting too: Maybe the rescued civilian turns out to be a good engineer/soldier/scientist so you could hire them to work at your base or something like that.

The way it is right now, I just feel like the game doesn't make the player care about the civilians enough - they're just annoying set-pieces, whereas they could be useful workers, which would, in return, make the player care about them more.

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Ufomeister

[Alienkiller]

Welcome to the Test-Team.

You mentioned about the reward such an Mission gives. And that´s a lot, you will need later on (Alien-Materials you won´t get on Earth). As well as the Panic-Reduction from such important Missions to get the global Panic down, which means you pay Humanity Time to Survive or not slaved etc. until you manage to get Solutions for the End-Game-Finals. That´s the 3rd Reward you get for the Global-Panic-Reduction.

You don´t have to forgett that the Xenonauts-Series have the old X-COM Games (esp. the first 3 Games EU / TftD / Apocalypse) as Model with many new Features to keep it Up to Date (like new XCOM, Phoenix Point, UFO 2 ET show already).

In the XCOM-Series (dosen´t matter old or new) you need the Alien-Materials as Buildup-Parts from the Storage to Upgrade your Technology, build advanced Technology, upgrade your Buildings and so on. 

Means in Short: You need all the extra Alien-Materials you get from such important Missions. UFO-Recovery is Secondary about the Decision you have to make between that Missions. Therefore you have the Stress-Level later, which will come in.

An similar System which is absolutely nessecarry is successfull implemented in XCOM 2 and Phoenix Point already. An similar System will come up too again hardcoded for Xenonauts 2.

What the Ballance between the Alien-Materials, Money, Upkeeps, monthly Payments and later more Features in that belongs should be clear now.

If not then I suggest you and the other new Betatesters play up to Day 180 or better 365. Then you all know exactly what all Main-Beta-Testers incl. me mean, which test the Game from beginning on.

Then it makes Sense to make Suggestions from the new Betatesters in that Parts.

 

What your Thinkings about Civilans belongs, it´s an nice Idea. But not as Soldier, you don´t need more then 20 if you manage the Game correctly and use the important as well as very cool Support Vehicles.

The Jobsites for Civilians can be then: Dismantling UFOs in new Outposts, upgrade Buildings in their Use (more Efficency from Radars / Scanners, Hangars, Test- and Training-Ranges, etc.) and similar.

Edited December 16, 2022 by Alienkiller

[Twigg]

5 hours ago, Chris said:

So I guess my question to you is why you're happy with 5 abduction tubes, rather than pressing for the full 10? Are you not aware of the rewards for doing so (Alenium + Alloys), or are they not high enough to make it feel worthwhile?

The opportunity cost is too high past the 5 tubes required to make the mission a success. I never felt the extra materials was worth the very high risk of running into more aliens with your pants down (no TUs remaining).

Getting 8 or 10 tubes is so much more difficult and risky then 5 that the reward for doing so should be suitably valuable, maybe something like a quality soldier, extra research to the current assignment, or a nice relationship boost to the region the mission took place.

 

[Alienkiller]

Without such Missions it will be an boring 08/15-Game like the Predecessor. Sorry to say it so harsh, but 08/15-Scrap most Gamers can´t see anymore.

Therefore many Gamers play instead new XCOM, Phoenix Point, Battletech or some older Games like Star Wolves which have such special Missions integrated.

What makes Xenonauts 2 and similar Games such unique:

1. They have limited timed Missions which are not much, but very interessting. The reward for that is differnt, belongs on the Game.

2. Such Missions bring the Player back to concentration. Standard 08/15-Games don´t do that. And there are more then enough from them on the Market since the good old Choose like in the 1970s to mid 2ks come to an End (Buy I that Game or either that).

3. In that Gerne we talking about such Missions are linket to the Global. In Xenonauts 2 and new XCOM it´s Panic, in Phoenix Point to an other Global Part, in the upgraded UFO ET-Series there is no clue yet (in the 2007 / 2010 outdated Part 1 it was linked to the Mothership-Engery-Cells which filled up slowly).

You see such Missions and Rewards are important. In Xenouats 2 you get 3 important Cristals and 5 Alien-Alloys per Tube as Main-Reward. The other important Reward is the Global Panic-Reduction up to 10, which is very important. If you don´t do such Missions, you get in about 180 Days: GAME OVER!

I have tested it and an Game Over you wont have about saving to less Civilians esp. in such Abduction-Missions.

 

The Description shows you to get 5 Tubes as Minimum. The more the better. And that can be linked to rewards like more worldwide Panic-Reduction or similar.

Btw. I managed to get all 10 several times in V.24.7-Beta through my 2 Playtests without difficultys. There the Cleaners make such Abductions. With the Aliens and same Strategy to save Humanity you can manage 8 to 9 Tubes.

Short said: Either you make such important Missions or GAME OVER very fast!

Edited December 16, 2022 by Alienkiller

[Ufomeister]

7 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Without such Missions it will be an boring 08/15-Game like the Predecessor. Sorry to say it so harsh, but 08/15-Scrap most Gamers can´t see anymore.

Therefore many Gamers play instead new XCOM, Phoenix Point, Battletech or some older Games like Star Wolves which have such special Missions integrated.

What makes Xenonauts 2 and similar Games such unique:

1. They have limited timed Missions which are not much, but very interessting. The reward for that is differnt, belongs on the Game.

2. Such Missions bring the Player back to concentration. Standard 08/15-Games don´t do that. And there are more then enough from them on the Market since the good old Choose like in the 1970s to mid 2ks come to an End (Buy I that Game or either that).

3. In that Gerne we talking about such Missions are linket to the Global. In Xenonauts 2 and new XCOM it´s Panic, in Phoenix Point to an other Global Part, in the upgraded UFO ET-Series there is no clue yet (in the 2007 / 2010 outdated Part 1 it was linked to the Mothership-Engery-Cells which filled up slowly).

You see such Missions and Rewards are important. In Xenouats 2 you get 3 important Cristals and 5 Alien-Alloys per Tube as Main-Reward. The other important Reward is the Global Panic-Reduction up to 10, which is very important. If you don´t do such Missions, you get in about 180 Days: GAME OVER!

I have tested it and an Game Over you wont have about saving to less Civilians esp. in such Abduction-Missions.

 

The Description shows you to get 5 Tubes as Minimum. The more the better. And that can be linked to rewards like more worldwide Panic-Reduction or similar.

Btw. I managed to get all 10 several times in V.24.7-Beta through my 2 Playtests without difficultys. There the Cleaners make such Abductions. With the Aliens and same Strategy to save Humanity you can manage 8 to 9 Tubes.

Short said: Either you make such important Missions or GAME OVER very fast!

You don't get the point at all and on top of it, you sound quite pretentious - sorry to put it that harshly

Seems like you see everything through somewhat rose-tinted glasses and that's fine but if some game mechanic is outdated, I'll call it out as that and don't defend it as something "important to keep the spirit of XCOM alive". Like, come on, dude. It's 2022

[Alienkiller]

Nope, we older Beta-Testers don´t see it from rose-tinted Glasses. Either it will be an 1:1 Copy from the first Game (08/15) or bring it to an new Level (like new XCOM, Phoenix Point, big refited UFO-ET-Series in WIP). The same would have happend to UFO 2: Extrateresstials "Battle for Mercury" if the Devs and their Freelancers wouldn´t bring in complete new Features, which will come in too for the complete Refit of UFO 1 ET-Gold.

We older Beta-Testers fight to bring such cool special Missions and Features to come in for Xenonauts 2 for several Reasons.

1. Not to have an 08/15-Standard-Game (like the Predecessor Xenonauts 1) and standing still like from the 1190s to new XCOM-Series (2012). 

2. Battle the direct Competitor (the fully in Upgrade-WIP UFO ET-Series).

3. To get an Game which don´t have the same Mistakes like the similar Games wich are working on the standing in the past Conecepts.

 

Enough Points to fight for that we older Beta-Testers and Main-Crowfounders already brought in. The only thing we can discuss about is to bring in an Panic-Reduction and integration as small Outpost for somthing like to make Reasearch & Development more profitible or somthing like that as additonal Bonus for the Xenonauts-Commander.

The more People you Rescue the better it will be.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Alienkiller

[Chris]

On 12/16/2022 at 11:05 AM, Ufomeister said:

In my humble opinion, 5 abduction tubes are enough to keep going - any more of them don't really feel rewarding to me but maybe that's just how I see things

I still think it'd be awesome and fun if you could rescue abducted civilians in more than one way - even during normal missions.

Just imagine, it'd open up possibilities for recruiting too: Maybe the rescued civilian turns out to be a good engineer/soldier/scientist so you could hire them to work at your base or something like that.

The way it is right now, I just feel like the game doesn't make the player care about the civilians enough - they're just annoying set-pieces, whereas they could be useful workers, which would, in return, make the player care about them more.

 

 

On 12/16/2022 at 2:48 PM, Twigg said:

The opportunity cost is too high past the 5 tubes required to make the mission a success. I never felt the extra materials was worth the very high risk of running into more aliens with your pants down (no TUs remaining).

Getting 8 or 10 tubes is so much more difficult and risky then 5 that the reward for doing so should be suitably valuable, maybe something like a quality soldier, extra research to the current assignment, or a nice relationship boost to the region the mission took place.

 

@Ufomeister @Twigg hmmm, that's interesting. I've never really seen these missions as that much of a calculation where you stop at 5 because that's the minimum required to achieve a win and it's not worth risking anything extra to get bonus resources. I think 5 Alloys and 3 Alenium is a decent haul from each additional tube, plus you get the money from the corpses and weapons of any aliens you kill. But I suppose there's a sweet spot where the bonuses just become too tempting. Maybe we will add in the -1 Panic reduction for each surviving rescued civilian then, as that gives a reason to protect the civilians and also gives a bit more of a strategic bonus.

I don't think I've got much more room for maneuver than that though. The time limit is intentionally pretty tight on these missions and I only manage to get 8 or 9 tubes on the missions I've played - and I assume my level of play is about correct for Veteran difficulty (in the future we'll increase the mission duration on easier difficulty settings). Also some rewards like special soldiers don't really work because you can't give someone 80-90% of a new soldier, and I don't want to only reward a player for getting all the tubes, so it needs to be something divisible.

Conversely I don't think I can realistically push the required number of abduction tubes up either; I don't think people respond well to hard timers (as XCOM2 showed at launch.)

 

5 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Nope, we older Beta-Testers don´t see it from rose-tinted Glasses. Either it will be an 1:1 Copy from the first Game (08/15) or bring it to an new Level (like new XCOM, Phoenix Point, big refited UFO-ET-Series in WIP). The same would have happend to UFO 2: Extrateresstials "Battle for Mercury" if the Devs and their Freelancers wouldn´t bring in complete new Features, which will come in too for the complete Refit of UFO 1 ET-Gold.

We older Beta-Testers fight to bring such cool special Missions and Features to come in for Xenonauts 2 for several Reasons.

1. Not to have an 08/15-Standard-Game (like the Predecessor Xenonauts 1) and standing still like from the 1190s to new XCOM-Series (2012). 

2. Battle the direct Competitor (the fully in Upgrade-WIP UFO ET-Series).

3. To get an Game which don´t have the same Mistakes like the similar Games wich are working on the standing in the past Conecepts.

Enough Points to fight for that we older Beta-Testers and Main-Crowfounders already brought in. The only thing we can discuss about is to bring in an Panic-Reduction and integration as small Outpost for somthing like to make Reasearch & Development more profitible or somthing like that as additonal Bonus for the Xenonauts-Commander.

The more People you Rescue the better it will be.

Alienkiller, I don't think this sort of post is very helpful. I've seen some of the other new testers getting annoyed with you recently too, and I think you should be a bit careful about what you say. I don't want people to stop posting here because they don't want to have to argue with you all the time.

There's no point drawing distinctions between new and old testers. Everyone who has played the game is entitled to an opinion. Also, remember that pretty much everyone who cares enough to register an account on these forums has probably played a LOT of Xenonauts, and probably also other similar games. You don't need to explain everything to them.

In general, please don't try to tell other people what they should / should not be discussing. Just concentrate on giving your own opinions - what rewards do you think the Abduction tubes should give? Would you change the mission?

[happystrawberry1]

23 minutes ago, Chris said:

What rewards do you think the Abduction tubes should give? Would you change the mission?

I would like to be able to kill off the Aliens remaining on the map or start the evacuation process if I am not able to get the minimum of 5, which is what happening to me on the newest run on Commander difficulty.  The mission just ending suddenly just felt... off? once I failed it.

[Chris]

25 minutes ago, happystrawberry1 said:

I would like to be able to kill off the Aliens remaining on the map or start the evacuation process if I am not able to get the minimum of 5, which is what happening to me on the newest run on Commander difficulty.  The mission just ending suddenly just felt... off? once I failed it.

So the aliens and the remaining tube are all meant to play a teleport animation as they disappear, but that's not in the game yet. That's meant to visually explain why the mission ends abruptly.

We could leave the aliens behind and force the player to kill them all to finish the mission if people think that's a good change? My guess is that people would prefer not, but I'm not sure. 

[happystrawberry1]

Just now, Chris said:

So the aliens and the remaining tube are all meant to play a teleport animation as they disappear, but that's not in the game yet. That's meant to visually explain why the mission ends abruptly.

Ohhhh that changes everything for me then! Having that visual that they teleported away would add to rule of cool. I think what you mentioned then on the -1 panic reduction earlier would work really well.

 

What do you think of having abduction tubes inside Crashed UFOs then? Since they teleport them away. Like 1 or 2 surviving tubes. Makes a player reconsider air striking in exchange for a -1 or -2 panic reduction. 

[Alienkiller]

@Chris Like already said, such Missions bring in picancy in the Game. That´s what such and similar Games make interessting. From the Mission itself I wouldn´t change much.

The Reward from the Abduction Tubes (Ressources) are fully OK. You will need them earlyer or later.

Where I give the Newbis right, that an Abduction-Save-Bonus would be cool for the Civilians. There Panic-Reduction is an very good Idea. -1 Panic, if nessecarry -2 as Maximum per Tube after you make more then the minimum 5 Tubes. That make the Challange much more interessting.

7 Rounds I think are OK for that Mission (esp. for Newbies on lower Difficultys), 5 on higher Difficulty Levels (Veteran / General). That wouldn´t plunge complete Newbies or such which beginn Beta-Testing and gives for the experianced Gamers / Testers like us an Challange.

Like you said, the Mission can be done to manage 8 to 9 Tubes, belongs on the Enemy which make the Abduction Mission. Aliens are harder to beat, Cleaners much easyer. With Cleaners as Enemys you can manage all 10 Tubes if you are clever.

 

@happystrawberry1 Very cool Idea. You mean for Abduction Missions which get done from UFOs directly. Sounds very interessting and would make such Crash- / Landing-Sites very important too.

 

[Twigg]

17 hours ago, Chris said:

@Ufomeister @Twigg hmmm, that's interesting. I've never really seen these missions as that much of a calculation where you stop at 5 because that's the minimum required to achieve a win and it's not worth risking anything extra to get bonus resources. I think 5 Alloys and 3 Alenium is a decent haul from each additional tube, plus you get the money from the corpses and weapons of any aliens you kill. But I suppose there's a sweet spot where the bonuses just become too tempting. Maybe we will add in the -1 Panic reduction for each surviving rescued civilian then, as that gives a reason to protect the civilians and also gives a bit more of a strategic bonus.

I don't think I've got much more room for maneuver than that though. The time limit is intentionally pretty tight on these missions and I only manage to get 8 or 9 tubes on the missions I've played - and I assume my level of play is about correct for Veteran difficulty (in the future we'll increase the mission duration on easier difficulty settings). Also some rewards like special soldiers don't really work because you can't give someone 80-90% of a new soldier, and I don't want to only reward a player for getting all the tubes, so it needs to be something divisible.

Conversely I don't think I can realistically push the required number of abduction tubes up either; I don't think people respond well to hard timers (as XCOM2 showed at launch.)

 

I understand your point about scalable rewards, I was trying to kill two birds with one stone with regards this mission and the sometimes terrible random selection of soldiers available. I think attaching panic reduction to tubes past 5 is a good idea because that is a rare enough effect that it can be worth sacrificing soldiers for.

I'd made it so it starts small but adds up small, something like -1 each for the 6th and 7th tubes, -2 each for the 8th and 9th tubes, and -4 for the final tube. That way a good player will regularly be able to get -1 or -2 panic reduction which feels like a nice bonus but will rarely have enough impact to mess with the balance of the game but if a player is desperate in that region they have a solid incentive to risk important soldiers and gear for a potential -10 panic reduction to a region that is is desperate need of it.

[Ufomeister]

On 12/18/2022 at 5:27 PM, Alienkiller said:

Nope, we older Beta-Testers don´t see it from rose-tinted Glasses. Either it will be an 1:1 Copy from the first Game (08/15) or bring it to an new Level (like new XCOM, Phoenix Point, big refited UFO-ET-Series in WIP). The same would have happend to UFO 2: Extrateresstials "Battle for Mercury" if the Devs and their Freelancers wouldn´t bring in complete new Features, which will come in too for the complete Refit of UFO 1 ET-Gold.

We older Beta-Testers fight to bring such cool special Missions and Features to come in for Xenonauts 2 for several Reasons.

1. Not to have an 08/15-Standard-Game (like the Predecessor Xenonauts 1) and standing still like from the 1190s to new XCOM-Series (2012). 

2. Battle the direct Competitor (the fully in Upgrade-WIP UFO ET-Series).

3. To get an Game which don´t have the same Mistakes like the similar Games wich are working on the standing in the past Conecepts.

 

Enough Points to fight for that we older Beta-Testers and Main-Crowfounders already brought in. The only thing we can discuss about is to bring in an Panic-Reduction and integration as small Outpost for somthing like to make Reasearch & Development more profitible or somthing like that as additonal Bonus for the Xenonauts-Commander.

The more People you Rescue the better it will be.

Just because I've only recently started posting here in regards to testing, doesn't mean I haven't backed the game long ago.

Honestly, I've been avoiding the forums because of you but whatever

 

[happystrawberry1]

12 hours ago, Ufomeister said:

Honestly, I've been avoiding the forums because of you but whatever

 

Same here. I just want to make the game better or help out.

[Alienkiller]

Yaeh, the Game need some more cool Stuff. In the past 2,5 Years we tested a lot of new Stuff and some of it comes in an different shape.

And I give you both right, there is going a lot more. Hope too that the Rest of tested Stuff get in too and we Beta-Testers can make it better.

When I´m getting to harsh sometimes, it´s about the hard test- and implemention Work we Crowfounders and Testers since the Game comes out invested already to make it longplayable and such Missions come in. And that´s a lot of Hours we active ones have invested (about 2.000 to 3.000 Hours+).