Milestone 2 (Prototype 2) - Balance Discussion

[ovoron]

2 hours ago, Skitso said:

I'd say the money balance is in a fairly good spot. I could expand bases and buy enough cool toys but needed to think and prioritize stuff.

It's funny because it seems like Commander has more money than Veteran (unless there's difficulty adjusted prices, which I don't think there are).

More enemies -> More Loot -> More sales.

 

Lab spam is as powerful as it was in v1.xx, so when I read these threads (here and on Steam) of people struggling to make ends meet I'm very perplexed.

 

Perhaps the game needs to make it clearer that captures are a very good way to make money.

[Belmakor]

On 12/4/2023 at 10:07 PM, ovoron said:

It's funny because it seems like Commander has more money than Veteran (unless there's difficulty adjusted prices, which I don't think there are).

More enemies -> More Loot -> More sales.

 

Lab spam is as powerful as it was in v1.xx, so when I read these threads (here and on Steam) of people struggling to make ends meet I'm very perplexed.

 

Perhaps the game needs to make it clearer that captures are a very good way to make money.

Your assumption is that people already know how to play the game and optimise for various things.  

 

Lab spam?  Do you mean making things and selling them?  Why would any normal/casual player ever think to do that?  If you want to do that and it makes the game easier then that's fine but you shouldn't have to do that to make ends meet. 

[Belmakor]

I wouldn't mind if it they gave you the option of recycling base stores instead of selling for cash.  Maybe you get back about 25% of the resources expended to make in the first place.

 

So like an Alien Magentic weapons could be recycled for 2 Alloys for example instead of cash.  Then you have two choices to make with most of your stores (small amount of resource, or larger amount of cash).  Laser rifle recycled would give you 1 alenium and 1 alloy (cost 4/4 to build)

 

Then you could theoretically reduce the amount of resources from UFOs.

 

One way to make "Lab Spam" less viable would be 30 days after your first sale to have an in-game event pop-up like; "Your laser weaponry advances have seen widespread adoption by world armed forces and therefore you will now receive less money per unit sale for laser weaponry".  

[Avaren]

Pretty sure "Lab Spam" refers to laboratories, which are unable to produce things to be sold, and instead refers to the power of having a fast research turnaround.

[bonerstorm]

On 12/7/2023 at 3:01 AM, Belmakor said:

One way to make "Lab Spam" less viable would be 30 days after your first sale to have an in-game event pop-up like; "Your laser weaponry advances have seen widespread adoption by world armed forces and therefore you will now receive less money per unit sale for laser weaponry".  

Unless I'm totally off my gourd, I don't think "lab spam" is a  thing. Not an OP thing at least. It is important to have a decent number of labs, 3 if not 4, by day 200... but I don't see an advantage in doing more than that or rushing it at the expense of other critical stuff. You can't build anything of substance without workshops and you can't progress without plenty of air power. Many techs are entirely skippable, so you shouldn't be hurting that bad even while skimping on labs. More money only gets you so far.

[ovoron]

Yeah, I've tried another playthrough, this time starting with a full shield squad, and it works, and the more close quarters it gets the smoother it goes, meaning this loadout dominates base assaults.

1st mission I've captured literally everyone without breaking a sweat.

1st Abduction? Got all the tubes and captured 8 out of 9, didn't have enough soldiers close to the last Secton to take care of him as well.

 

Perhaps most impressively, this even worked on the jungle VIP extraction, I've had 1 sniper rifle and the rest started with batons. I've switched 3 soldiers to pistols towards later stages due to how open the map was and since this was still early game I didn't have enough STR to carry as many consumables as I wanted. Even so, I've brought 3 Cleaner captives and 2 SMGs to the evac zone.

 

Eliminate VIP: I've farmed this one extensively, brought back bodies and SMGs to Skyhawk 24x7. Got all the bonus data, The Leader, 4 Soldiers and 7 Agents brought back as captives, along with all data, 15 SMGs and 35 Cleaner corpses. Total profit was a bit short of $700K. And it obviously instantly revealed the Cleaner HQ mission on Day 32. Entire squad got 2 medals, 1 for eliminating 5 enemies total and the other for 4 during a single mission.

 

Commander has become so easy that basically any reasonable strategy works. You can play a very short range squad like this one, you can play a very long range squad like 3 Shields + 6 Snipers I've tried before and that works too, even on base Assaults it's manageable.

 

By day 35 I had 4 labs fully manned (including adjacency bonuses). and by Day 55 I had 5 Labs fully manned and everyone in Warden armor with 2 Accel Sniper rifles. 2nd Workshop is done as well, although new hires would have to be delayed until day 60 to save on salaries.

 

The game is so trivial nowadays with its Flashbang + Smoke grenade meta I feel like Cleaner HQ can be done with basic weapons if you don't go crazy with the captures in the final room.

 

The biggest problem is the AI, when enemies just walk back and forth only to end their turn in an open door frame with no cover.

Edited December 11, 2023 by ovoron

[ovoron]

On 12/8/2023 at 7:55 PM, bonerstorm said:

It is important to have a decent number of labs, 3 if not 4, by day 200...

4 by day 200? I had 4 by Day 35.

 

On 12/8/2023 at 7:55 PM, bonerstorm said:

but I don't see an advantage in doing more than that or rushing it at the expense of other critical stuff.

There is no other critical stuff.

 

2nd base? Not important because losing the game by panic is no longer a thing.

 

Armor? I already have full Warden by day 55.

 

Weapons? Got 2 accel snipers in mid 30s, you can postpone that to get laser, but then again, Gauss is not that far off either and the only thing that's tough to beat with bad weapons is the Cyberdrone, but even that can be smoked so it wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn and then grinded down with grenades and focus fire.

 

Air? I've tried Sidewinder and Accel Autocannon. Both are meh, I've got myself a 2nd autocannon instead of armor and fuel. It's funny how you don't need as much fuel if you just double your damage output...

 

2nd Angel isn't a priority either, just 1 with basic twin Autocannons takes care of business if you know what you're doing in manual combat.

Edited December 11, 2023 by ovoron

[Grobobobo]

22 hours ago, ovoron said:

There is no other critical stuff

Kind of been my experience as well. The game is so easy even on commander that it just doesn't pressure you enough to have critical stuff. Plus unused scientists and engies actually generate money when unused, so oversupplying on them isn't wasteful.

[bonerstorm]

On 12/10/2023 at 12:00 PM, ovoron said:

4 by day 200? I had 4 by Day 35.

 

In my latest run (the last exp before the milestone release version), I built my fourth on day 61. I think that's the optimal way to play, but it's important that the game be flexible enough to accommodate different styles.

Like it should be viable to try all sorts of different base builds and troop setups, instead of one optimal one. Players should also be able to recover on Ironman from a debilitating setback like a full or half party wipe. Like a player should be able to have a reasonable time with a squad of mostly riflemen...

Speaking of: this is a daily reminder to the devs that the nerf on rifle burst accuracy is way too high.

4 hours ago, Grobobobo said:

Kind of been my experience as well. The game is so easy even on commander that it just doesn't pressure you enough to have critical stuff. Plus unused scientists and engies actually generate money when unused, so oversupplying on them isn't wasteful.

I don't mind that the game is too easy at this stage as long as it isn't unbalanced. Cranking up the difficulty at this point while the gameplay fundamentals are still in flux risks 

[Grobobobo]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:52 PM, bonerstorm said:

Speaking of: this is a daily reminder to the devs that the nerf on rifle burst accuracy is way too high.

Technically it's not nerfed, it's exactly as high as it was in x1, at 45%. The reason it feels weaker is because of the change in shooting mechanics.

On 12/11/2023 at 8:52 PM, bonerstorm said:

I don't mind that the game is too easy at this stage as long as it isn't unbalanced. Cranking up the difficulty at this point while the gameplay fundamentals are still in flux risks 

I don't think the game fundamentals are in flux. The fundamentals are more or less done and there aren't any major game mechanic changes planned, it's just value tweaking and adding content now.