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bergamon

Weapon phisics - kinetic vs. laser

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In vanilla version and most mods using kinetic weapons in the game seems less sophisticated than in old-good Jagged Alliance. Example: JA's firearms can knock down enemies in spectra vests - they stay alive but they are lying on the ground unconscious or knocked out of breath. This applies both to get a direct burst hits from assault rifle into the torso and a close grenade explosion, as well.

Ridiculously using laser weapons reminds kinetic ones - they are not accurate (although they are not subject to the rules of ballistics) and even cause recoil (eg. scatter laser).

In my opinion, the following assumptions should be made:

a/ kinetic weapon should have relative more damage (big holes made by rotating bullets), high mitigation factor (preparation for the shot - mechanic of reloading, using complex optical sights etc. could cost more TUs) low range and accuracy (the result of the gravitational ballistics rules, and recoil recoil occurring in each firearm) but significant abilities of penetration and stun of hit targets.

b/ laser weapons should have less damage (thin, highly concentrated beam), low mitigation (easy and instant use of straight aiming ray before shooting) high range and accuracy (no recoil, and no rules of the gravitational ballisticsin addition to the influence of air pollution on the laser beam) but low abilities of penetration (a dispersion of the beam on the armour) and no stun of hit targets.

Edited by bergamon

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Since there can be an unlimited number of photon particles in one place there is no reason to not give laser the highest mitigation in the game, check your physics. If there is not enough concentration of the laser beam you wont be able to do damage, and if you do damage it is piercing damage, since thats the way lasers work.

Applying real physics to a game is not possible, at the end of the day you will have to ignore certain physical laws, and then people will call you out for being unrealisitic. Your suggestion is as gamey as the vanilla one, it just ignores different laws.

I think it comes down on how you configurate the weapons, and since there is no detailed description of every weapon, every bullet, and every battery, you can argue either way.

408-apfi.png?crc=343148035thats a piercing bullet 1346371563822IMG6620-M1.jpgthis is a bullet which transfers all its energy as a stopping power

you cant have both, and they are used in different situations. Piercing weapons are good against heavy armoured units, and max energy transfer bullets are most devastation against targets without armour. Same can be applied to lasers, although they have a lot less room for utility.

 

If you want to have the closest realism play X-Division, there weapons are most realistic in what they are designed for, snipers with high mitigation and low stopping power, and shotguns with low mitigation and high stopping power.

Edited by Charon

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Sorry, I did not understand the meaning of "mitigation" - I usually use "penetration" term in reference to the ability to pierce armour. I thought "mitigation", is the negation of being able to proceed with something with little effort or difficulty.

So, as you mentioned above "mitigation" depends on few factors, according to the following characteristics :

1. Directly proportional to the amount of energy concentrated

2. Inversely proportional to the time interval of its impact.

3. Inversely proportional to the surface area of its impact.

This is theory... In the real life eg. industry cutting -  steel sheets less than 2 mm is recommended to cut with a laser, less than 3 mm plasma or laser, less than 6 mm with water (KINETIC), plasma or laser, more than 30 mm with oxygen or water (KINETIC), and above 200 mm with oxygen. So, best "mitigation" could be obtained by kinetic or chemical method.of cutting.

Edited by bergamon

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1 hour ago, bergamon said:

2. Inversely proportional to the time interval of its impact.

?

1 hour ago, bergamon said:

This is theory... In the real life eg. industry cutting -  steel sheets less than 2 mm is recommended to cut with a laser, less than 3 mm plasma or laser, less than 6 mm with water (KINETIC), plasma or laser, more than 30 mm with oxygen or water (KINETIC), and above 200 mm with oxygen. So, best "mitigation" could be obtained by kinetic or chemical method.of cutting.

What is the point ?

Having a pinpoint needle is not what you want in combat. The higher the mitigation the less energy gets transfered to the body, unless the armour absorbs it. If you make a pinpoint hole in a sebillian it will heal back in 2 seconds.

So if you want a realistic scenario, you would have to examine the sebillian and and caesan corpses, and make a weapon that pierces through the armour, but not through the body. Then you produce said weapons and make a high percing one for higher armoured units, like tanks and discs.

If you could maintain the laser long enough you could make something which would basically be something like a scissor with unlimited range, and cut the head off - but its impossible to maintain the laser for such a long time.

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Of course: "mitigation" of laser impacting on mobile target is inversely proportional to the time interval of its impact - it means that in the blink of an eye it should be focused on eg. half square inch area enough energy to evaporate an armour and burn tissue in volume of cylinder 4-5 inches deep. It's obvious that the same amount of energy interacting on a half square meter of motionless body in eg. half an hour would not burn through - it could rather bake the flash ;)

The point is  - I agree with you regarding theoretical "mitigation" of laser, which evaporate everything on its path trough the target, buildings, earth, and planets to the end of universe until the battery runs out BUT - in the real life - the most important difference between a water (kinetic) and a laser (thermal) cutter is that the water can cut in almost any material - its steel, stone, glass, plastic or wood, and even titanium. In addition, it can process reflective materials such as aluminium, copper or brass. Laser can only deal with matt objects unless additional gas is used.

Let's talk about ridiculous recoil and inaccuracy of laser.

 

PS.

Kinetic energy of deadly bullets is well known - the lowest is 200 J ... But how much thermal energy is necessary to kill with a laser beam? Maybe the same as boiling 1/4 litre of water - 100 000 J?

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, bergamon said:

Of course: "mitigation" of laser impacting on mobile target is inversely proportional to the time interval of its impact - it means that in the blink of an eye it should be focused on eg. half square inch area enough energy to evaporate an armour and burn tissue in volume of cylinder 4-5 inches deep. It's obvious that the same amount of energy interacting on a half square meter of motionless body in eg. half an hour would not burn through - it could rather bake the flash ;)

I see what you did there, didnt think about that. Good point.

13 minutes ago, bergamon said:

The point is  - I agree with you regarding theoretical "mitigation" of laser, which evaporate everything on its path trough the target, buildings, earth, and planets to the end of universe until the battery runs out BUT - in the real life - the most important difference between a water (kinetic) and a laser (thermal) cutter is that the water can cut in almost any material - its steel, stone, glass, plastic or wood, and even titanium. In addition, it can process reflective materials such as aluminium, copper or brass. Laser can only deal with matt objects unless additional gas is used.

Indeed.

14 minutes ago, bergamon said:

Let's talk about ridiculous recoil and inaccuracy of laser.

Sry, cant talk about that, havent played the vanilla game in ages. But you can take the recoil rather as the mechanic effect the weapon does so it stays cool during shooting (spasm). For the inaccuracy you can give the soldiers some drugs and tell them they are in a disco.

17 minutes ago, bergamon said:

Kinetic energy of deadly bullets is well known - the lowest is 200 J ... But how much thermal energy is necessary to kill with a laser beam? Maybe the same as boiling 1/4 litre of water - 100 000 J?

Yes, this is why i think the question is simply about how quickly you can go to the next step - plasma. As in theory lasers simply do need too much energy to be effective, and are partly reflected by most materials.

 

PS: Water is an awesome material to cut, but the close combat makes a knife better in most situations. Knifes also are pretty robust and not weather dependend.

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5 hours ago, Charon said:

Sry, cant talk about that, havent played the vanilla game in ages. But you can take the recoil rather as the mechanic effect the weapon does so it stays cool during shooting (spasm). For the inaccuracy you can give the soldiers some drugs and tell them they are in a disco.

Re. Accuracy:  in the case of traditional weapons, many factors are involved, such as the wind, the speed of the bullet, or its flight through the ballistic curve. Although computers are currently being converted to these variables, the case of the laser is much simpler - the beam of light goes just where it was aimed - it is tested and proved since XN-1 LaWS is working on board of USS Ponce - vide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_Weapon_System

Re. "spasm": giant XN-1 LaWS is powered and cooled by a "skid" through a diesel generator, separate from the ship's electrical systems, giving greater efficiency relative to power provided of 35 percent, so "spasm" effect seems to be great BUT hand weapon powered and cooled by alenium power cell could look like simple hair dryer with a flashlight at the end of the barrel ;)

051415-hair-dryer-history-slide-13.jpg

PS: Water is an awesome material to cut, but the close combat makes a knife better in most situations. Knifes also are pretty robust and not weather dependend.

It's not only a water - there are a lot of tungsten carbide particles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_jet_cutter#Abrasive_waterjet     - the same material is used in "hard core" of  a kinetic energy penetrator (KEP, KE weapon, long-rod penetrator or LRP) type of ammunition designed to penetrate vehicle armour   :)

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