Josip Broz Tito

It's not logical to have all the aliens be suicidal, even if they're disposable. From an efficiency standpoint, you would still want most of your troops to extend their lives until the point that they've killed at least 1 human, especially in the smaller scale this game takes place in. Easiest way to do that? Use cover, and make judgments based on the resistance you're facing. One element of that is visual and audible data, what the alien sees and hears, with another being its own physical state. If you're getting shot= decent clue you need to move to cover and reassess the resistance you're facing. Easiest way to tell you're being shot for a biological life form? Pain. It doesn't have to be strong, but it does indicate to the alien that their armor has been compromised. I feel that adrenaline or some form of synthetic stimulant as well as anti-coagulant is already present in all of the aliens. This is because they don't bleed out, and remain able to fight without consequence until their bodies fail. The aliens do feel some pain since they make noises when hit. For the xenonauts, they have adrenaline, and likely very strong convictions and resolve to fight. That could be a reason they also fight until their bodies fail. BTW, Mytheos, look up human wave attacks in Africa. They're literally armies that feel no pain. Generals and warlords take men/boys and pump them full of cocaine, adrenaline, and other substances until they don't feel pain then send them en masse against fortified positions or armies. It tends to work how Echo has mentioned. Lots of dead soldiers, with the position untaken/ army undefeated. Wave attacks are usually the province of fools and those without artillery/mobile armor/planes. If you don't feel pain, you don't know when to alter your behavior to avoid physical damage. A solider that lives longer has more opportunities to kill their enemy. There's a reason most animals w/ a decent amount of neurons evolved to feel pain. Reduction of it is useful to keep the sensation, but not the crippling effects- elimination of it is foolish. There's no reason for the aliens to act in such a way, even with reapers. It makes more sense, and makes the game more fun when aliens use cover for protection, and to advance.

I agree w/ Mytheos. I've been able to use smoke grenades to save soldiers that should've died. I feel they were better before the change. At least with the old way, aliens would burst fire into the smoke (which makes sense). This is a case where the way the OG X-Com did it was non-ideal, and xenonauts had improved upon it. Radius and longevity reductions in the 19.1 stable didn't solve the exploitable nature of smoke as they are now. I used to think otherwise, but with how many soldiers I can render immune to dmg= there's a problem. At leas the AI should estimate your position and fire into the smoke, with combat ranks being better at it. If they are meant to make close-range combat safer= not realistic IMO. That's the role of flashbangs and shotguns, which should be examined.

I disagree on the no-pain part there: there are people with a nervous system disorder that doesn't allow them to feel pain. These people can damage themselves without realizing it or kill themselves. Walking on a broken leg, biting their tongue off, etc. Example: Sebillian elite has the genetic markers that allow for pain turned off. He gets shot in the chest with a human plasma rifle. In reality he's close to death, and if he felt pain he'd realize the bolt melted through his armor. Instead, he didn't feel any negative sensation and charges the xenonaut who shot him, only to die from a second shot. If the shot hadn't've penetrated the armor, this would've been a viable choice. If the sebillian had been able to feel even reduced pain, it could've tried to retreat to cover. Not to preserve it's own life, but to increase its chances of killing before it died. My overall point is that pain is present in most lifeforms for a reason= it's useful. Reduced pain for combat ranks makes sense to reduce autonomic responses to pain that could hinder their ability to fight. However, some pain allows combat ranks to judge their physical condition to choose how to kill xenonauts. This isn't exactly represented in game well yet, but the lore in the xenopedia seems to support this. I'm cool with androns and heavy droids acting suicidal in combat, and am ok w/ sebillians being slightly too aggressive (but not suicidal as that is detrimental to killing xenonauts). This is a good discussion. Haven't seen the bravery/suppression aspect talked about all that much in my previous lurker existence.

Echo, that's why I acknowledged my inexperience. On-hit suppression would make sense for xenonauts then. I've never really had my soldiers get suppressed except when hit with a plasma cannon. Maybe this needs to be tweaked overall. BTW, glad you're physically OK from taking a hit like that. Glad my tax money partly goes to armor : ) Although, I can imagine that would be an experience that would stick with you for a lifetime.

I agree with Mytheos that automatic suppression is a bad idea. I like how it is now based on bravery. It also makes little sense for many of the aliens to get auto-supressed on a hit. I can see this w/ Caesans given how frail they are, but not with sebillians. Makes little sense for veteran armored xenonauts to get suppressed from a flesh wound either. (that said, never been shot, so if someone has= throw your opinion up please) The whole point of a close-range weapon is to one-shot an enemy to eliminate them as a threat fast so you can move your men into the room safely. The ballistic shotgun before the 19.7 change would hit for 60 on sebillian non-coms (one-shotting them), while the carbines had a decently powerful singleshot and the ability to auto-fire w/ higher armor piercing than rifle autofire. This meant you could eliminate things up close without the 'oh crap, the shotgun rolled all 10's' problem I've been experiencing. The shotguns as they are can one-shot the early aliens- but I've found them to be horrible on higher ranked aliens. 3x shots point blank with a laser shotgun on a low-rank andron is nuts. I've been noticing that the RNG for the shotgun projectiles seems to roll similar numbers instead of using the whole possible range. as an example: 10, 12, 15 or I'll get 20, 19, 25. One of those will be a nice hit, the other will be about a single rifle shot. More projectiles at the current dmg would be nice, or at the very least a TU cost so I can fire twice after moving in. The shotgun needs a tweak. Or at least at this point tweak it and see if it makes up-close combat worthwhile. At the moment, I have no reason to use it compared to just shooting open a door w/ machinegun fire and spending a few turns cautiously sniping to clear it.

A little hard to read your post. But, I feel you : ) The game's getting better and better each patch. Still needs a bit more of the 'oh crud, I hit end turn but missed that one last corner in the room my soldier's now in.' It needs a bit more randomized and unexpected alien spawns to where you become paranoid about clearing every room.

The snipers didn't feel to different to me. I noticed the one-shots on occasion, but they were the go-to weapon in last patch too. Thankfully they suck vs aliens in cover : )

The fixed alien TU's are immediately noticeable in the first mission compared to that of the last build. It's dangerous and tense, but it's lost that hopeless 'meat-grinder' feel. The ability to make hunters at the beginning of the game without research is a good change. I didn't check, but did we also get a free hunter too? I could select one in the vehicles tab, but my garage wasn't finished yet. Didn't try loading it on the Chinook. Didn't lose any troops on the first or second mission and no wounds (bring 2 sticks of C4 on each rifleman in case of hard-to-reach aliens). This was possible w/ careful play in the OG and TFTD too. So far, the initial feel is better. Suppressing aliens with auto-fire/machine guns and flanking them is now much more effective. I do strongly recommend that Goldhawk include a detailed manual with basic tactics so that newer players don't get to frustrated and give up before they learn how awesome this game is. The aim of the game is to get X-Com vets to buy it- but it'd be great to convert some of the new generation of players too. If you can devote time to a tutorial mission= even better.

shoot doors open w/ gunfire: don't open them manually. You're just asking to be shot. I don't use c4 on doors since I like the $$ from equipment, and it doesn't take all that much fire to breach them. This method allows you to hang back for a few turns railing aliens w/ fire at a distance before entering, rather than having your men face-to-face w/ them.

Was going to post about this from 19.7, if it's still the same in stable= this is applicable: The pulse laser is extremely powerful. I'm not sure if it needs to be toned down or not. It's not the most accurate weapon in the game, but it's blast radius is high enough to where it doesn't matter within a screens distance. Using a soldier wielding a alenium rocket as a barometer, the pulse laser can deal close to 2x as much damage in one turn. I was in a terror mission and had 5 sebillian warriors attacking my troops. They were all within 2-3 tiles of each other. One turn, 2 shots= 4 of them dead, one wounded badly. I lost out on their equipment...but even being able to one-shot most aliens at that stage of the game...twice per turn seems excessive compared to what infantry could do. Although, to be fair if I had brought 2 rocket infantry, I would've likely had a similar result. I will play with them more this build. The pulse laser is definitely effective though.

hmm, good idea. It'd be a brutal puzzle.

Yeah, my goal is to kill every detected UFO. I'm just going slower to make sure I absolutely can do so immediately in every expansion area. It's good that we're all able to play slightly differently. Makes discussions more rounded. Next build I'll start noting down when and what I build to be able to compare better w/ what others are doing.

I can see your argument for closer=more damage. You're starting to turn me a bit It would be a nice offset to the less-risk long-range combat that seems to work better this build (for me). Super-ultra compromise: random variable in ode to x-com/for tension influenced by a range offset to damage and possibly influenced by the accuracy stat as well. Another part of the reason I advocate the variable is that it leads to higher volumes of fire directed at the aliens. IRL, lots of bullets are exchanged in infantry battles. It feels right to have to empty clips over the course of a mission. In 19.6, I often got away with 1 magazine being used per soldier. Kinda felt wrong to me. 19.7, I'm using a magazine and part of another in many cases: for me, that feels better.

Those were IN? Mehhhhh, want them back. It'd be a great way to diversify aliens too. Caesan and Sebillian noncoms, and reapears could be very vulnerable to incendiaries. Armored Caesans and Sebillians could take reduced dmg from flames (since they're wearing anti-thermal armor anyway), switching those weapons to an area-denail role against them. Androns and Droids could be completely immune to fire. It's simple (probably not to code) and would be a fun addition to the game. Going further, certain aliens and ranks could be more or less resistant to explosives. That would be another cool dynamic. Also wouldn't mind seeing aliens in the late-game co-opt human technology, such as smoke grenades, shields, gas/poison gas, and perhaps rocket launchers to replace plasma disruptors(or w/e their hvy weapon is called, since lore-wise the xenonaut method of detonating the plasma at the point of impact rather than having it open to the air as it travels= superior). You get the idea. Right now, it feels as though the aliens fight more clinically, while humans fight dirtier. As the scale starts to tilt in the Xenonaut's favor technologically, it would be cool to see that dynamic change.

I understand the argument against a breaching charge (just shoot the wall)...but it is on my want list right along w/ a plasma spike melee weapon. That's right: I want a lethal melee weapon. Trying to get some Terror from the Deep going in Xenonauts : ) The balcony rooms in alien bases in the OG were some of the best combat I had in that game.

Ah, I go to every single one. For me, I want that $$ and the extra TU's and stats each mission gives my soldiers. Being able to use armor on every soldier I have + a full loadout, including heavy weapons is important to me. It does get tedious though. I think that further development to the AI and crew compositions would go a long way in alleviating this issue.

Hmm, never had a 90 degree encounter ever. Guess it's my luck- always been head on. Regardless, someone had the idea of longer roll distance coupled with a lower recharge. That might be a good way to go. Fighters could reliably counter fighters, but would still be weak vs capital ships, but torpedos would be the opposite..

Agreed with the building comment, I also look forward to more Z-Axis combat. Notsomuch in the OG, but TFTD had a lot of combat with enemies higher and lower than you. This game needs that, especially in alien bases.

I think that if smoke grenades stay the way they are now, that aliens should try to estimate your position to burst fire at. Higher rank aliens would be far better at estimating than non-coms for example. If the aliens could throw smokes, you could bet for sure that I'd be firing into it to either kill or supress them. I want the aliens to do the same. This behavior should require that alien to have already seen the soldier or been fired at by that soldier(which would allow the alien to estimate direction. OH, and when aliens can throw grenades, I'd like for them to use those in smoke estimation as well : ) Separate topic: Stun rockets and Stun grenades. I like how the stun rockets throw out a consistent area of gas, thank you for that change. The new grenades work fine on non-coms, and seem to cause other ranks to shift position to get out.

I go with one base for 2 months, capture as many aliens as I can for the score/funding boost and hit every mission. I don't know what to tell you, I don't have a problem getting the hangars and foxtrots up. Been doing the standard 1st base in Egypt. As far as how I spend it's: Hangar, Hangar, Lab, Living Quarters initially, + 5 scientists. From there my overall goal is to get 1 garage, research foxtrots asap, build one hunter, then devote the rest of my $ to getting 6 foxtrots at home. From there I build 6 suits of jackal armor. Then expand. This build let me lock down the west half of eurasia. Once I had the 6 foxtrots, I built a base in indochina to cover australia a bit too. Having the six allowed me to send out three to knock down UFO's right as radar finished to make up for the 1 month delay in expanding, while still covering home. I think the confusion over my post is that I'm doing a 'boom' build rather than a 'fast expand'. I build up until I feel secure, then expand, lock down the expansion area (meaning I can reliably kill any ships that show up), then expand a third, and usually final time. As far as I know of your experiences, maybe I've just gotten lucky with UFO spawns w/ my playthroughs that they happen to like my starting area.

I think that just means that shotguns need some attention. Now that I have wolf armor on some of my troops, the shotguns show promise. The devs have said they exist for closed-in spaces. Not many closed in spaces exist in the game atm. In the previous build I used carbines on a few soliders that I would send into UFO's to clear them and they worked well for that purpose. That alone has made it hard to test them. Alien bases could incorporate more maze-like areas, aliens could use buildings more often, and UFO's could receive slight interior randomization to encourage/force you to get in there. Regardless, without randomization we would lose the X-Com feel (which is the whole point of Xenonauts), tension, and a chunk of realism. Sure you shot the sebillian with a rifle...that doesn't mean it should always do the same damage, especially if it didn't get hit in a vital area. If a person gets shot in real life the same damage isn't always 'dealt' to them. Fleshwounds exist, now they're actually represented in game. As for soldiers dying: X-Com and TFTD have always punished players for exposing their soldiers. Start using snap shots to make sure you can get your guys back out of alien LOS and always engage multiple soldiers against one alien at different angles. That's what we had to do in the old days. The game's harder until you get armor, just like the OG and TFTD. Now as for a possible theoretical compromise: The 50%+- could be checked against a soldier/aliens accuracy stat to determine an overall tendency for the modifier. A person w/ 75 accuracy might receive positive modifiers to dmg more often than a sebillian w/ 50 accuracy. This keeps 'fleshwounds' and a sense of realism while allowing for more vitally aimed shots for veterans. Seems like an idea I'd be comfortable with. What do you think of the above idea, Mytheos?

I usually have 3-4+ UFO's spawn per wave near my main base on every playthrough I've done. 6 foxtrots= 1 per fighter, 2-3 per corvette, landingship, carrier etc. Usually end up using each foxtrot, and sometimes have to send out the first pair again for a fourth. Besides, having six allows you to immediately stock a new base and start controlling that area and improve standing, rather than waiting a third of a month. I put three in bases that aren't too active, then 4 in ones that are.

Yeah, I love hunting down alien bases. It's hard w/ foxtrots, but way easier with Marauders : ) Follow those grounded UFO's and follow back alien tracks : )

Another option with more minimal changes, would be changing the always -head on aspect of air battles. It might help to have alien ships (and your fighters) sometimes enter into battle from varying clock positions. With all enemies in one place, it's easy to just use foxtrots. If you're having to turn them all different ways= then it's a bit more challenging. Hmm, thinking that there would still need to be some tweaks to fighters and torpedos regardless.

I think the system's fine as is. Shotguns need a tweak, but that's about it IMO. The 50% +- modifier is fine IMO for these reasons: 1. If you think about it, this turn-based system actually represents a short amount of time which doesn't lend to accurate shots at all times. 2. You're fighting cloned aliens designed to sustain wounds that would kill a human and keep fighting: notice how they don't bleed out. Their pain tolerance has likely been artificially boosted too. 3. The damage system in the game represents physical trauma AND pain tolerance. There's only so much dmg a body can take until it's unusable, so our soldiers will never have alien amounts of health (realistically at least). They will, however, become more resistant to the mental affects of pain and autonomic damage responses as shown by gradual health point increases. So that means that the numbers we generate with the +-50% modifier already represent 'critical' and 'flesh' wounds. This is a proven system from the originals and has already led to more tense gameplay. It's forcing us to play more carefully- and that's a good thing. As for losing soldiers seemingly randomly= there's always something that you could've done better. Whether that's making sure another soldier's there to cover the first, throwing a smoke at your feet, or just simply taking your time and never letting soldiers end a turn out of cover or un-croutched. There is some RNG, but the fun of the old games was learning to play better to minimize the risk. At this point, I really feel that the aliens need the dev's attention to ensure that they will be varied and challenging.