Par'Gellen

ROFLMAO That was AWESOME! It fit so well it gave me chills! LOL!

I was a little baffled as well

Oh I understand. I'm actually in the process right now of writing a game myself. Nothing fancy though. Kind of a space/alternate universe kind of thing inspired by playing games like X3 and Eve Online.I've got a lot of the design and logic/database code finished but I suck at XNA so I'm writing it in such a way that it leaves the core elements exposed in case some day I feel froggy and want to hire someone to put some fancy graphics on it. I'm using Visual Studio (VB.NET specifically). Bugs don't usually bother me too much unless they are game breaking. I understand how that works and those can always be fixed. However, bad design decisions are another thing entirely and 90% of the ones I see large companies make infuriate me to no end. It seems like nobody can just make a great game anymore. No nowadays it's all consumerism with grand spreadsheets showing demographics and dollar signs. I understand they are a company and have to sell as much as possible but that's like telling Leonardo da Vinci he better make Mona Lisa a blonde because more people will buy copies of it. That kind of crap doesn't fly very far with me. Unfortunately that's the world we live in

Never played Fire Emblem so I can't say. I never try to give my opinions as if they are facts but sometimes my emotions get the better of me when I see something that seems like it was done as a slap to the face of die-hard fans. Especially when I am one of those fans It has a personal feel that can color my words sometimes and if I came across wrong I apologize.

Ok now I can type lol! Sorry I was kind of busy there for a bit. To expand: I wasn't comparing the two. But since you bring it up, in the original when I detected a UFO it made me wonder what it was up to. Not 100% sure why but I just knew that those alien bastards were up to no good and I really needed to take care of their rotten butts before they could carry out whatever mission they were on. Honestly I didn't even care about the score. I just didn't want them to succeed with whatever they were doing. In the new one I just don't get that feeling. It's more of a "Oh look, another one... *click*" kind of thing. Meh...I played all the way through the game on Normal and then got all the way to the psionic stuff on Classic but the game has just lost it's appeal so I doubt I'll be finishing it again. I haven't seen any uptick in UFO activity and the only country I lost to panic was France. I have satelites over every other country (still talking about my Classic game) and weeks go flying by in the Geoscape with no activity at all. When something does happen I actually feel bad instead of good because it means I have to go play yet another cookie-cutter mission with a squad of elite idiots. Wow I never wanted it to be a flight sim. That would suck. I think you took what I said and ran to the edge of extremes with it then jumped off. Like asking for extra cheese on your burger then getting one that was 98% cheese and the waiter loads it into a cannon and shoots you in the face with it. Xenonauts did it well I think. They gave me some extra cheese without trying to kill me with it. (YOU ROCK CHRIS & GANG!) Again, I wasn't comparing it to the original but you are correct to an extent. The original wasn't a perfect game and I never said it was. It had a deeper feel though. You could actually forget to do things in the original and later on be like "AW Crap! I forgot to order more smoke grenades! This should get interesting..." or "Oops! I really should have moved that hangar to the other side of the base when I thought about it earlier... Now this base invasion is going to get hairy." XCOM: EU just holds my hand through everything like I'm a little old lady that can't remember where I live. I don't dislike them but I do find them very limiting and they lose their appeal with me pretty quickly. "OH! OH! This is fun! HAHA take that. I have a support so that's not a problem... Hmm... Ok now I'm bored... What other games do I have?" I want more control. Exactly. It's a pressure timer at first then becomes kind of irrelevant (well on Classic I was still having a little trouble with panic in the later stages but I think that's the point). I like the news snippets too I just wish they had meaning. Why can't I investigate them? Why can't I use them to discover a pattern of some kind in the attacks? They are nice but sort of meaningless... But now that I think about it that's where most of my gripes with XCOM: EU come from. Garnish without meat.

I was not comparing it to the original as I stated at the beginning of my post.

Yes pretty much. However XCOM: EU just doesn't do that (for me). Sure, they made things a lot less complicated but they took it way too far and wound up throwing the baby out with the bath water. Here are examples of what I mean. These examples are made without comparing to the original. These things stand on their own merits or lack thereof as if there never were an original to compare it to.1. Strategic game UFO interception. UFO's are very rare and just pop onto the map with no apparent goals other than to make your score go up or down. It doesn't feel like I'm intercepting a UFO filled with alien scum bent on attacking humanity when I send out an interceptor to deal with it. It feels like I'm just clicking a button to prevent my score from dropping and then watching a pretty cutscene. Personally I don't like that and want some more meat in the situation. I doubt they could simplify this mechanic any further without removing it from the game entirely. Pretty on the surface but contains no depth. How could they have done it better? Take a look at how Xenonauts is doing it. I think they're doing it very well! It feels like something is actually happening. 2. Strategic game base building. Looks great but means nothing beyond planning for getting some adjacency bonuses. It takes about five seconds (if that) to figure out the optimal layout based on where the steam vents are, then you never have to think about it again for the rest of the game. Nothing ever happens with your base that requires it's design to mean anything (not comparing here, this is a standalone fact) so the player never gets to plan it's design so that it is efficient and serves a purpose. Why require a design at all? A simple list telling me I have 4 workshops, 3 labs, 1 foundry, etc. would suffice or just let the computer place everything for maximum efficiency automatically if the graphics are the reason for it's existance. This is an example of something they actually made even more complicated than it has to be without making it more complex. How could they have done it better? Give some meaning to the layout. Make me choose to design the base in a way that has a purpose whether that be for defense from an attack or setting up an efficient flow for a factory base. These would require more depth in other areas as well for them to work properly (aliens base attacks and requiring your base to manufacture things that you can't get anywhere else like plasma clips and blaster bombs). 3. Soldiers. This is a real biggie and ties into pretty much every other aspect of the game. This entire mechanic is so simple it feels like "Fisher-Price: My First Soldier". Granted they made a very uncomplicated design, but it has virtually no complexity at all! How could they have done it better? Give the player the ability to decide classes, skills, and loadouts for each soldier and for the love of any deity ever conceived give him at least a small inventory to manage. For the players that don't want to think about it give them pre-designed loadouts based on whatever classes they picked for their soldiers. Win/Win. Weapons like the rocket launcher should not be "skills". That just feels artificial. I should be able to give any soldier any weapon and if his skills are crap with it then he will be shooting his feet and walls but I should still have the option to do it if I want to. I'm the commander! I should not feel like I'm watching a movie here! Also they should be able to pick up items from the battlefield and their AI should be smart enough to stop moving when it sees an alien (not comparing here, this is just common sense children or even little chickens would have). Ugh... I could go on and on all day about this area and I don't have time. Lets just say I'd take this whole design and scrap it and start over. 4. Panic mechanic. I understand why it's there. Something has to keep the player moving and give them a sense of pressure. That's fine but the way they did it makes it feel like little more than a countdown timer with A, B, or C multiple choice questions attached. How could they have done it better? Design it to have a more organic feeling. Something as simple as having the aliens become increasingly aggressive based on how well the player is fairing would work well. If I'm doing really well against the aliens then I should have to fight tooth and nail to maintain that rather than just selecting from three choices and feeling cheated. If I can't keep up then I lose ground. If I excel then they get even more aggressive. Doesn't seem like rocket science to me... This is all I have time to write for now. I hope this gives you an understanding of what a lot of us are talking about when we say we want more depth. Would large parts of the game need to be redesigned for these things to work? Of course they would. That's the whole point.

I saw the $10 per gallon gas prices and burst out laughing. In a couple of years though I'll probably be wishing it were true...

Well to me it lacks depth because it feels shallow. If you don't feel it also then I can't explain it to you. There just doesn't feel like a lot of game under the graphics. Your opinion may differ Edit: It is completely possible to make a game more complex and less complicated at the same time.

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AAAAHA!! *turns green* \o/

AAAHAHAHA! You sir just won the Internet!

Well why is Gorlam's name green? I'm so confused! *runs away crying!*

I LOVE YOU ALL! \o/

Oh I understand what you are saying but the date argument is used in many reviews as a fallback response. Almost like they are apologizing for the game or something. It sort of comes across to me like they're talking about a slow kid and saying things like "Well he was kicked in the head by a horse when he was little... So, you know... *shrug* He's a great kid though." Sure he may be a great kid but he's not going to get a PH.D. any time soon. I just don't get it... Am I supposed to think XCOM: EU is a great game because I feel sorry for it?

The one thing that I've noticed over and over especially in favorable reviews of XCOM is the need to tell me what year it is and how "gaming has changed". I find that a pretty weak argument for any reason. Is it supposed to make me suddenly sit back and say "Oh my god! I didn't realize it was 2012! Holy crap that makes this game AWESOME!" I just don't understand that argument in support of the game and it's lack of depth. How does that make it a great game?

Oh awesome! Thanks Ice!

I'm pretty new here too and so far I've asked some stupid questions and made even stupider (probably) comments but everyone here seems to be extremely cool. I LOVE YOU ALL! \o/ I only heard about Xenonauts because of the XCOM Steam forums and the rabid defenders (dev alts?) on there that keep telling us all to go play it and STFU You bring up a good question though. Is there a FAQ about the current state of Xenonauts somewhere? I see the one on the website but it seems a little dated.

Haha! I remember the good old days when I could say things like that and she'd be all "WTF?!" She knows me too well now though and it probably wouldn't even slow her down. "Pitchfork? Anyway, the grandkids say hi and blah blah blah"

Laughing at myself is just too easy. I do the stupidest things sometimes that it's impossible not to. Sometimes I even try to play tricks on myself but I'm also a crafty bastard so it rarely works.

My wife is out of town this week and she called me earlier to chat a bit. She asked what I was doing and I calmly responded "Raging on the forums".

Hi VolNation! Don't worry about getting lynched! They haven't run me out of town yet and that's saying a lot! I like XCOM: EU for what it is as well. It's not as deep as X-COM: UFO Defense but it's fun nonetheless. My biggest problem with it isn't really even anything about the game itself. It was all the "staying true to the original woohoo! naaarr gurgle *flops around on floor*" Firaxis hype that had me expecting the wrong game. If Firaxis had been a bit more honest about what they were stripping out of the original I probably wouldn't have even thought about it.

Not sure who Wan'Gellen is but I can answer your question Not being able to sell the things you make like you could in the original places an artificial limit on the player in an attempt to make his decisions "more important". In other words, they wanted to make it feel like you have to make big important choices with your money because all you get is what they give you. Oddly though they then give you things that you can sell which is counter to that whole mechanic. It's like they want both and effectively do neither. I understand their reasoning behind the limit on what you can sell but the implementation was completely borked. Heck the whole design of that mechanic was borked and feels rushed. Like at the last minute Jake can't figure out what he wants to do and just panics and tries to do both before the game ships. In the original you could augment and even completely replace the government funding with your own "factories". It wasn't perfect but it was at least an option. In the new one you don't even get the option, and sitting on 40 plasma rifles you've taken the time to stun the enemy for just feels (as I said in the list) extremely lame. I never said I wasn't a "bloody moron". In fact I'll be the first to admit it! If you don't agree with my list that's fine and I won't hold it against you. It's your opinion after all and I fully support your right to express it.

I agree. It's like playing a MMO with that guy in your group that is constantly yelling "Let's go! Let's go!". I really hate that guy lol!

I watched the Xenonauts Lets Play Youtube video someone linked on this forum not too long ago and it looks awesome so far! So true to the original with new features that are going to be terrific! I'm very excited about it!