Should Rotating Soldiers Be Free?

[Mytheos]

@Goroth Obarskyr

Well if something adds relatively nothing to the game, why do it?

I and it seems everyone else thinks its unnecessary.

I understand you think having it in is pointless, or costs too much TU, but I think having it requires you to be more careful, and make use of things like smoke grenades to cover your flank and blind sides.

It DOES make a difference and the game is balanced around turning costing TUs, so the whole system would need to be tweaked to add this change you understand right?

Why should the Devs spend time on something that really adds zero value to gameplay? This would result in nothing other than making mistakes more forgiving and allowing players to be less cautious?

Not to mention the playstyle change of everyone spinning around all the time, which would just be and feel odd.

Can you give 1 reason this would be better other than you feel it is too costly in TUs? (Because no one seems to believe that is the case)

[Goroth Obarskyr]

@Mytheos

My point in the previous post was that what we're talking about here is removing gameplay, not adding it. My feeling is that rotation costing TU is unnecessary.

In my opinion, a lot more often it just means you're counting in your head cost of rotation in addition to movement so you can get that snap shot off at an alien you can already see than prohibiting you from spotting an alien, allowing them to "ambush" you or whatever.

I realize it's a very minor element to change but I think ground combat plays a little more smoothly with it taken out. Also, it does not suddenly break the balance of ground combat, nor does reenacting Swan Lake with your soldiers become the most effective strategy. I think the significance is being blown a little out of proportion here.

[Mytheos]

@Goroth Obarskyr

The reality is doing a change like that would take a bit of Dev time.

What is gained? I cant think of anything positive, but I can think of several things negative.

I dont turn my soldiers towards an enemy before I fire, I just fire, and have never turned and then been prevented from shooting, nor from tossing a grenade.

I have never calculated Turning in my head short of needing to go around a corner, turn and then run back behind a corner.

So again I cant think of a single positive reason for the Devs to make the change.

You have already made and tested the change yourself, so obviously you are capable of doing so. I dont think this change would make the game better is my point, and if a couple of people like it the can easily mod it.

If 5% of players think it smooths out the game more, and 70% dont want it changed and the rest dont care, it isnt worth bothering with, and thats just the reality.

[Mytheos]

I just loaded a game and checked.

The TU cost of turning is added into the shown TU cost of shooting. I started a turn with an alien behind one of my soldiers, and the 20 TU Rifle shot cost 23 TUs, I took the shot, the soldier turned around, and shot the Alien, and 23 TUs were expended.

Then I was of course facing directly at the Alien after taking the shot. The following 20TU shot, showed as taking 20 TUs.

So the only time you arent aware of the overall cost and would need to perhaps calculate would be moving and turning, which again I dont calculate there either. I move to where I want to go, and check how many TUs I would have left if I move there (The square you click on tells the remaining TUs you would have)

And then if I have a reasonable amount left over, I might toss in a couple of scouting turns.

So this really just means, a change would give the player a TU advantage over the current system, in which the player doesnt need at all, any TU bonus.

Keep in mind the Devs just reduced the TU cap, so I would think they felt, at least on the high end, soldiers had more TUs than they should.

And if a Soldier had around 80 TUs, and moved that 80 TUs, and you looked at the amount of Blackness revealed, and then did the move again only this time looking to the right and left on every square that they moved, the amount of TUs need to push back that extra blackness could be around 10-20 TUs

So on the vast majority of turns, the soldiers would save anywhere from 5-20 TUs.

I'm not quite sure how you dont consider that a major impact on the game balance.

Especially when a rookie with 55 TUs managed to save 10-15 TUs on a turn, thats a major noticeable difference.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Mytheos

[Goroth Obarskyr]

You can postulate and make up as many numbers as you want, but for me having actually played the game like this, it doesn't feel like it's gotten hugely easier. Like I said before, balance is ongoing, if free turning were implemented it would be peaches compared to balancing equipment and the AI.

I think we've reached as much as is going to be resolved in this thread, and this is the part where we 'agree to disagree.'

[henri5]

Back to soldiers, I would prefer recruiting to be like in the original, where there was a wider range of stats, and one would have to dismiss about 5% of the new soldiers due to low stats, but OTOH one had a fair chance to recruit a really good one. And if one had enough money, one could even throw away average recruits and try to recruit even better ones. Think of it as recruiting for a Delta Force, where only the best make the grade.

[Mytheos]

You can postulate and make up as many numbers as you want, but for me having actually played the game like this, it doesn't feel like it's gotten hugely easier. Like I said before, balance is ongoing, if free turning were implemented it would be peaches compared to balancing equipment and the AI.

I think we've reached as much as is going to be resolved in this thread, and this is the part where we 'agree to disagree.'

I never said it would make it "greatly" easier, so far as the overall game.

It does make it easier, it WILL save you deaths, it WILL forgive mistakes, this is a fact and cant be argued.

And what do we get for this? Nothing.

And you do realize the ONLY time you arent getting bonus TUs is when you walk in a straight line?

I suppose it depends on playstyle, but I dont find myself running my entire squad across the map in a straight line, save for maybe 5% of occasions?

So this isnt a situation of you get a bonus amount of TUs every once and awhile.

It'll happen most soldiers most turns.

I appreciate the fact you have tested it and feel you have greater insight, but go make a mod that gives your soldiers between 1-6 extra TUs randomly per turn...

Then come back and tell me if you notice, you obviously wont. But you still wind up getting a bonus the game doesnt need.

And again this is all for absolutely no reason.

This is no different than saying you dont like the Sit / Stand costing TUs and you feel the game is smoother without it.

Ok, I disagree along with the vast majority and have stated my reasons why.

I agree to disagree.

[Voeter]

Since this discussion seems mostly a 1v1 disagreement maybe my 2 cents adds a bit to the discussion

Realism issues (ie. the "Black Swan Effect") aside for me it would break immersion if my xenonauts had a superhuman 360 degree cone, err.. circle of vision. I really love that I have to make sure to fan everybody out as to check as much of my flanks as possible as to not get caught with my pants down from a hidden alien. In fact I believe it will take away a bit of the thrill of exploring the map. A slightly different example to illustrate:

After cautiously exploring the area around the crash-landed UFO with the riflemen and snipers having killed off the three defending aliens, Cpt. Greystalker took his shotgun out of his backpack and walked up to the front door of the alien spaceship. "Greystalker in position, moving in on your mark commander". After getting the order he runs into the spaceship and sees one of those filthy bastards on his left. In his cautionless battle-adrenalin pumped frenzy he turns towards it, quickly triggering his pump action benelli: "DIEEEEEE ALIEN SCUMBAAAARRGHHHH! grgll.... ugh...", completely missing the other occupant standing to his (former) right blasting him full of hot plasma surprise.

Now these kinds of scenario's have me shouting at my screen, telling myself off what a complete retard I was in not checking both corners, fully realising that could (and most probably would) have caused a reaction shot because turning around takes action points. This again forces me to rethink my entire strategy and next time maybe throw in pre-emptive flashbangs, rockets or whatnot. Effectively having had 360 degree vision would have completely negated the need for this. I either would have seen 1 alien and shot it to bits or instantly seen two (or more) aliens and (probably) would have been able to run back and then deploy aforementioned (concussive) explosive. So, it would in fact make the game easier and, for me, kill a lot of the suspense.

TL;DR: I disagree with free rotation for it's not only unrealistic, but also breaks immersion and makes the game unnecessarily easier.

Edited July 29, 2013 by Voeter

[ThatSwoleGuy]

No PLEASE no, it makes total sense that it costs to look around, otherwise as others have said, LoS means shit all if it costs nothing to look around.

This would be a pointless and shitty change in every way.

Immersion being a factor in the enjoyment of the cost as well.

[thothkins]

I really love that I have to make sure to fan everybody out as to check as much of my flanks as possible as to not get caught with my pants down from a hidden alien.

If you don't want to get caught with your pants down, you should go to the bathroom before getting on the Chinook. Unless you can wee out of one of the Chinook doors en route.

[Goroth Obarskyr]

If you don't want to get caught with your pants down, you should go to the bathroom before getting on the Chinook. Unless you can wee out of one of the Chinook doors en route.

^this^

Back to soldiers, I would prefer recruiting to be like in the original, where there was a wider range of stats, and one would have to dismiss about 5% of the new soldiers due to low stats, but OTOH one had a fair chance to recruit a really good one. And if one had enough money, one could even throw away average recruits and try to recruit even better ones. Think of it as recruiting for a Delta Force, where only the best make the grade.

If this were the case maybe we could recruit some rookies that knew which direction to hold the gun. It would be an op advantage that we players do not need. (jk jk)

Ok one more thing about rotating soldiers is that it's not well conveyed at all by the game in its current state. Do rotation costs apply when a soldier spins and shoots an alien behind him? Is it included in movement costs? Are TUs charged for diagonally adjacent squares as well or just orthogonally adjacent squares only?

Of course as you play you learn these things, but at least for the sake of consistency there should be a tooltip somewhere. Keep in mind that when X-com came out in the 90's it came with a thick manual.

I promise I'm done now. No need to have Mytheos reach dangerous blood pressure levels

Edited August 1, 2013 by Goroth Obarskyr

[Tericc]

I would like to see side stepping. Be more realistic, perhaps a greater cost to tu but I can see it taking some of the oh crap whats around the corner feeling.. will i get insta face melted by reaction. (not that U couldn't with side stepping but would take out some of that unkown feeling) But it would make your soldiers feel more "military" rather then waltzing around the corner.

[henri5]

BTW, I just noticed today that one can destroy wooden fences by shooting at them (it takes a number of shots), which is one way of increasing the ingress paths. There is one industrial map where a fence goes almost all the way across the map, and the ship and a half dozen aliens is on the other side, picking off the soldiers who come around the fence. Blowing a hold in the fence changes the dynamics considerably. I suppose that one can also destroy them with explosives, but I haven't tried that.

[Goroth Obarskyr]

BTW, I just noticed today that one can destroy wooden fences by shooting at them (it takes a number of shots), which is one way of increasing the ingress paths. There is one industrial map where a fence goes almost all the way across the map, and the ship and a half dozen aliens is on the other side, picking off the soldiers who come around the fence. Blowing a hold in the fence changes the dynamics considerably. I suppose that one can also destroy them with explosives, but I haven't tried that.

Indeed, the ability to make your own entrances is quite valuable.

[thothkins]

Blowing a hold in the fence changes the dynamics considerably. I suppose that one can also destroy them with explosives, but I haven't tried that.

I just use the rocket launcher. As you say, it makes quite a difference in the mission dynamic

[Solarius Scorch]

I would like to see side stepping. Be more realistic, perhaps a greater cost to tu but I can see it taking some of the oh crap whats around the corner feeling.. will i get insta face melted by reaction. (not that U couldn't with side stepping but would take out some of that unkown feeling) But it would make your soldiers feel more "military" rather then waltzing around the corner.

It would be a difficult design choice. On the one hand, I liked how in Jagged Alliance 2 you could walk sideways and backwards, just like you described. On the other, Jagged Alliance 2 had a much more complex mechanics than Xenonauts (which didn't necessarily make it a better game though).

I can't really see how it can be done elegantly. However, I'm not saying it can't.