Mag Weapons Don't Actually Seem That Bad

[EIG]

So, a lot of people are saying "skip mag weapons for lasers", and I'm not seeing it myself. For a few reasons actually.

First, at least currently, before upgrade laser weapons have the same base damage as the mag weapons, but they don't have the bonus penetration value. I'm actually thinking that means they are slightly worse against armored opponents unless/until you hit 3+ shots on the same target, which is where the laser's low ammo matters a bit more. After the upgrade that changes, but I think the after upgrade version is currently the human version of plasma weapons given the requirements.

Second is the cost, which is where I am thinking that the trick is that you can sell the mag weapons when you do upgrade to lasers for a good chunk of what the lasers are going to cost you in terms of money, and both have fairly low resource costs when you start getting regular UFO missions. Compared to the other projects available the resource cost doesn't seem that big to add in.

Third is a relatively recent change to let you capture Cleaner mag weapons... which kind of works against my argument because you can in fact just do that instead of building them yourself and get lighter versions as well. Still using those to fill out your mag rifles while you just build mag versions of shotguns or machine guns seems like a way to tide you over until the laser upgrade.

 

Now, as for downsides I currently see:
- The mag sniper seems a bit more dubious. The sniper class has a base 10 penetration already, even the laser version, while the mag only has 12. Going straight to laser here isn't as strange of an option to me as the other variants.
- You will be losing some research time to unlock these, and as noted above the Cleaner options can fill out a big role without that.

I'm not sure they are really in the right spot at the moment, but I don't think I will be going to instantly skipping them just yet.

[DaviddesJ]

About half people are saying "the game is broken because mag weapons are so bad you should never research them" and the other half are saying "the game is broken because mag weapons are so good there's no point in researching lasers".

 

The main thing this tells us is that most people just pick a position more or less at random and then become very strident about it.

[Dren608]

I've done some comparison math and based on observed damages in missions it seems to go something like this.

The Armor eats up some of your Damage dealt. then your damage to the armor is calculated after the attack.

So basic assumptions in my comparison are these:

You will hit, you will do the listed damage (RNG always at 100%), Armor of alien is at 20.

Both weapons do 40 damage Thermal or Kinetic which can make a difference on Alien type later on.

So The Mag Rifle will do 25 (40 - 15armor because 5 penetration which goes by that much armor) damage on first hit, Laser 20 (40 -20 armor)

Then the Armor is reduced to 18 for the Mag Weapon, to 12 for the Laser.

2nd shot 27 (40 -13 because of Penetration), for the Mag, 28 (40-12) for the Laser.

From 3rd shot on the Laser is superior as long as it is the same target.

You usually get 1 shot sometimes 2 on a specific alien from one soldier.

The kicker comes in the available shots. over 20 attacks the Mag doesn't need a reload, the Laser needs 3 (until you get the upgraded ones) that means it will take you "23 shots" to get 20 actual shots out of the Laser (reloads basically cost a shot in TU). Currently the missions aren't long enough  for the most part to make that a significant issue.

All the above is observational data I don't have access to the actual code, so the Devs or others that have delved into the code can correct the above.

I personally bring a couple Lasers and a couple of Mags, the Lasers hit first to lower armor then the Mag can finish them off.

Just the way it seems to work from what I've observed in 1.28b

[doubleskulls]

Like @Dren608 said, in terms of combat effectiveness accelerated weapons are, in general, marginally better than lasers, because the do more damage to pretty much anyone with armour. Accelerated weighs more, but you don't need to carry as many magazines, and avoiding reloads matters tactically. 

On a strategic level Accelerated Weapons are cheaper to manufacture ($$$ and alenium) but require a research slot (Magnetic Weapons) you won't actually need otherwise until you want Gauss Blasters for your interceptors (as you have to complete the Accelerator Cannon project). You can't really delay laser research as you need Heavy Lasers for air defence. 

 

[momerathe]

So I think the performance of non-advanced lasers and mag weapons are broadly similar. 

My feeling is that because you have to research aircraft laser weapons anyway, it’s not an either-or proposition: it’s lasers or both. 

[EIG]

So, maybe I should go into a bit more detail on what I see them as, given I am a bit worried some are taking this as an argument that you should skip lasers instead.

I see mag weapons as actually working in theory as the starting weapon upgrade. You unlock them basically as soon as the game starts to research, they are cheap enough to easily get some as soon as they unlock, and there is a good sized time period between being able to build them and getting the advanced lasers upgrade where they are a solid choice of weapon.

Then you get some more advanced research, get the option for laser weapons, and while the infantry lasers aren't better than mag weapons right off they are a step to the strategically important heavy laser technology that advances aircraft and vehicle weapons noticeably. Later on the laser upgrade to be better than the mag weapons, but it isn't the case that you should go a couple of missions with mag weapons and then throw them all out as soon as you have the first version of lasers.

It is a theoretical progression where you get both, and both have their time period to be useful. The issue is mostly that the mag weapon research is a tiny little dead end project that competes with other early game projects, particularly the first armor project that has a much more noticeable impact on tactical combat and uses the same limited early resources.

In theory this is all balanced to give what looks to me to be the intended progression, and given the gap between mag weapons and advanced lasers I'd say there can be the time and resources for going with both.
In practice the game goes a bit quickly right now and infantry armor is the better first tech pick, especially with how you can capture the Cleaner Mag Weapons, which are just plain better than what you can build for rifles (20 weight instead of 25).

I think the stats are in a good place and that the timing could work, but the extra research and early cost makes it so skipping for lasers is a bit too attractive.